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linhart Offline




Posts: 2.493

Fri Nov 04, 2011 6:21 am
HICNE Quote · reply

HICNE hat zwar einen eigenen Eintrag in L&S, aber mit Verweis auf HIC, und dort steht "With the interrog. particle: ...". Es handelt sich also anscheinend doch nicht um ein eigenständiges Wort (wie z.B. NECNE eines sein dürfte).

Georges führt HICNE nicht als eigenes Stichwort auf.
Auch in der Spellcheckerliste kommt es nicht vor.

Nach unserer Grundsatzentscheidung müssten wir aber HICNE mit allen Formen aufnehmen. Mir ist aber nicht ganz wohl dabei.

Was meinst du, Bussinchen?


Bussinchen Online




Posts: 17

Fri Nov 04, 2011 1:54 pm
#2 RE: HICNE Quote · reply

<seufz> Ui, ui, ui...! Phhhh.... </seufz!>

Da gibt es im L&S außer
• hicne, haecne, etc., v. hic, B.
I. fin.

ja auch noch die verdammten Scheißeinträge

• hice, haece, hoce, v. hic, I. B.

• hicine, adv., v. hic, III. 2
I. init.

• hicine, haecine, hocine, v. hic, I. B.




Entschuldige meine Ausdrucksweise! Aber es ist doch echt zum Junge kriegen!!! Kommt man denn nie zur Ruhe?! -->

Puh!!!


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linhart Offline




Posts: 2.493

Fri Nov 04, 2011 3:14 pm
#3 RE: HICNE Quote · reply

Die Wörter hice, haece, ..., hicine, haecine, ... belasten mich momentan weniger, weil sie alle fein säuberlich in der Spellcheckerliste stehen. Aber hicne, haecne, ... müsste ich eigens eingeben, und das freut mich nicht besonders, wie du dir vorstellen kannst. Deshalb habe ich begonnen, nachzudenken, ob diese Formen wirklich in die Liste gehören.


Bussinchen Online




Posts: 17

Fri Nov 04, 2011 3:39 pm
#4 RE: HICNE Quote · reply

So, nach meinem Stoßseufzer - du, Linhart, drückst dich da viel feiner aus als ich mit meinen Kraftausdrücken! - will ich erst mal den L&S-Artikel zu HIC, HAEC, HOC posten und in dem Artikel mithilfe des blinkenden Smileys die Stellen markieren, auf die in den Lemmaeinträgen, die ich in meinem vorigen Beitrag zitiert habe, verwiesen wird.




hīc, haec, hōc (gen. hujus, monosyl., Plaut. Am. prol. 51; 96; 1, 1, 115; dat. huïc, Sidon. Carm. 7, 145; Avien. Descr. Orb. 22; dat. sing. fem. hae rei, Cato, R. R. 14, 3; acc. HONC for hunc, C. I. L. 1, 32; nom. plur. hic, Enn. ap. Philarg. ad Verg. G. 4, 230 = Ann. v. 414 Vahl.; Varr. L. L. 6, § 73 Müll.; fem. haec,, B. init.; dat. and abl. hibus, Plaut. Curc. 4, 2, 20; cf. Varr. L. L. 8, § 78 Müll.; v. Neue, Formenl. 2, p. 203 sqq.), pron. demonstr. [from the pronom. root i (whence also comes is ), with the demonstr. suffix ce ] points to something near or present, or which is conceived of as present, this.

(a). With subst. : hic homo sanus non est, Plaut. Am. 1, 1, 246: rapidus fluvius est hic, non hac temere transiri potest ... apud hunc fluvium, etc., id. Bacch. 1, 1, 53: quid praeclarum putet in rebus humanis, qui haec deorum regna perspexerit? etc., Cic. Rep. 1, 17: genus hoc, id. ib. 1, 25: hoc avunculo, atque in hac tam clara re publica natus, id. ib. 1, 19; cf.: quorum singuli saluti huic civitati fuerunt, et qui sunt procul ab aetatis hujus memoria, id. ib. 1, 1: his libris, id. ib. 1, 7: hae feriae, id. ib. 1, 9; 1, 20; cf.: hoc otio, id. ib. 9 fin. : haec caelestia vel studiosissime solet quaerere, id. ib. 1, 10: ad haec cituma, id. ib. 1, 21: hic vir, Liv. 7, 39, 12.—

(b). Absol. (cf. Krebs, Antibarb. p. 520): hic insidiantes vigilant, Enn. l. l.: hi domum me ad se auferent, Plaut. Men. 5, 2, 94: non mihi videtur, quod hi venerunt, alius nobis sermo esse quaerendus, sed agendum accuratius, et dicendum dignum aliquid horum auribus, Cic. Rep. 1, 13: feceris (ut etiam pro his dicam) nobis gratum omnibus, id. ib. 1, 21 fin. : hoc ubi Amphitruo erus conspicatus est, etc., Plaut. Am. 1, 1, 87: docere hoc poterat ille homines paene agrestes, et apud imperitos audebat haec dicere, Cic. Rep. 1, 15: dixerat hoc ille, cum, etc., id. ib. 1, 12: haec Scipio cum dixisset, id. ib. 1, 11: haec plurimis a me verbis dicta sunt, etc., id. ib. 1, 7.—

B. More emphatic, in the original full form, hīce, haece, hōce (not, as formerly written, hicce, haecce, hocce; in gen. sing. HVIVSQVE; in nom. plur. hisce, like ieis = ei, and ques = qui, see below; and apocopated in nom. plur. fem. haec for haece, and in gen. plur. horunc, harunc, for horunce, harunce); and, with the interrogative particle, hicine, haecine, hocine (mostly ante - class.): hoce haud dubium est quin, etc., Ter. And. 2, 3, 17: eum hinc profugiens vendidit in Alide Patri hujusce, Plaut. Capt. prol. 10; so, hujusce, id. Poen. prol. 120; 5, 4, 76; 87; cf.: atque hujusce rei judicium jam continuo video futurum, Cic. Div. in Caecil. 14, 47: hisce homines ubi habitent, Plaut. Trin. 4, 2, 36; v. Ritschl ad h. l.; so, hisce, id. Ps. 1, 5, 125; id. Capt. prol. 35 Fleck.; id. Rud. 2, 1, 5 ib., and perh. also id. Mil. 4, 8, 24 (Ritschl, hice): hice, Att. ap. Non. 15, 29 (Trag. Rel. v. 122 Rib.); Ter. Eun. 2, 2, 38: haec aedes, Plaut. Most. 2, 1, 53; 3, 1, 117; so, haec sunt atque aliae multae in magnis dotibus Incommoditates, id. Aul. 3, 5, 58: haec (puellae), Ter. Eun. 3, 5, 34: haec sententiae, Cic. Tusc. 1, 11, 22; 3, 34, 84; Lucr. 3, 601; Verg. G. 3, 305; cf. Bentl. Ter. Hec. 5, 2, 24: aliut posticum harunce aedium, Plaut. Stich. 3, 1, 41; cf.: harunc aedium, id. Most. 2, 1, 57: sine opera tua nihil di horunc facere possunt, id. Cist. 1, 1, 53: horunc, id. Poen. 3, 1, 48; Ter. Hec. 1, 2, 97; id. Phorm. 3, 2, 33: cedo signum, si harunc Baccharum es, Plaut. Mil. 4, 2, 25: harunc aedium, id. Merc. 5, 1, 3: hisce ego Placidum ted hodie reddam, id. Curc. 5, 3, 48; cf.: quid dicam hisce, incertus sum, Ter. Hec. 3, 4, 36: tu ab hisce rebus animum avoca, Sulp. in Cic. Fam. 4, 5, 5; so, hisce, Plaut. Cas. 2, 7, 13; id. Most. 1, 3, 81; 1, 4, 23; 2, 2, 71; 4, 2, 35 et saep.: Thr. Tu hosce instrue. Gn Illuc est sapere! ut hosce instruxit, Ter. Eun. 4, 7, 11; so, hosce, id. ib. 1, 2, 71; id. Heaut. 3, 2, 3; 4, 5, 4; id. Ad. 5, 7, 5; id. Phorm. 4, 3, 4: apud hasce aedes, Plaut. Am. 1, 1, 194; so, hasce, id. As. 2, 3, 1; id. Aul. 2, 4, 2; 2, 8, 15; id. Capt. 4, 2, 51; id. Bacch. 4, 6, 17 et saep.— With the interrog. particle: hicin' Achilles est? Plaut. Mil. 1, 1, 61; so, hicinest? id. Pers. 5, 2, 49; cf.: hicine vir patriae natus usquam nisi in patria morietur? Cic. Mil. 38, 104 et saep.: haecine, Plaut. Am. 1, 1, 206; id. Ep. 4, 2, 5; 5, 1, 15; id. Pers. 4, 3, 75; Ter. Hec. 5, 2, 5; id. Phorm. 5, 8, 24: huncine hominem, Plaut. Ps. 1, 2, 68; cf.: huncine hominem! hancine impudentiam! judices, hanc audaciam! Cic. Verr. 2, 5, 25, § 62: hocine hic pacto potest Inhibere imperium magister? Plaut. Bacch. 3, 3, 43: o Juppiter, hoscine mores! Ter. Ad. 4, 7, 40: hacine victoria sola aut hac praeda contenti estis futuri, Liv. 10, 17, 5; Ter. Hec. 3, 1, 3; so in the shorter form, hicne, Cic. Rosc. Am. 48, 141: ex hocne equo, id. Fat. 3, 5: cum hocne, id. Att. 9, 7, 3: ex hacne natura, id. Tusc. 1, 25, 62: haece locutus, Enn. ap. Gell. 12, 4 (Ann. v. 239 Vahl.) al.—So, Fortuna hujusce diei, as a particular deity, Cic. Leg. 2, 11, 28; Plin. 34, 8, 19, § 54; in inscrr. also written HVIVSQVE DIEI, Inscr. Orell. 5; cf.: HVIVSQ. LOCI, id. ib. 1580; 2300; and HOIVSQVE AEDIS ERGO, id. ib. 2488.—

C. With other pronouns: hos eosdem motus perturbationes dixerimus, Cic. Tusc. 3, 4, 7; cf.: cum idem hoc visum diceretur, id. Rep. 1, 14: hoc idem fit in reliquis civitatibus, Caes. B. G. 7, 15, 2; id. B. C. 1, 74, 5; Quint. 8, 4, 17: haec eadem centurionibus tribunisque militum mandabant, Caes. B. G. 7, 17 fin. : haec eadem genera, Quint. 6, 3, 54: hoc ipsum civile jus, Cic. Rep. 1, 2: sed hoc ipsum ex superiore pendet quaestione, Quint. 2, 1, 8; 8, 3, 45: ad hunc eum ipsum, Cic. Ac. 1, 1, 2 Goer. N. cr.; cf.: idem hoc ipsum, id. Tusc. 5, 9, 26: huic illi legato, id. Fl. 22, 52: hunc illum fatis Portendi generum, Verg. A. 7, 255; cf.: hic est enim ille vultus semper idem, quem, etc., Cic. Tusc. 3, 15, 31: hic est ille status quantitatis, Quint. 7, 4, 15: haec est illa, quae δεινωσις vocatur, id. 6, 2, 24: hujus istius facti stultitia, Cic. Rab. Post. 9, 24: ista haec epigrammata, Sid. Ep. 2, 10: hunc talem virum, Cic. fil. ap. Cic. Fam. 16, 21, 3: callidum quendam hunc, Cic. de Or. 1, 50, 218.—

D. Opp. to ille, iste, less freq. to hic, alter, alius, etc., this, the latter, to indicate the nearer object (which is to be determined not so much by the phraseology as by the thought; so that hic may refer to that noun whose position in the sentence is the more remote, but which is the most closely connected with the speaker, and of the most importance to him, in which case it is to be rendered by that, the former, etc.): ejusdem esse, qui in illa re peccarit, hoc quoque admisisse, Cic. Inv. 2, 16, 50: in his undis et tempestatibus ad summam senectutem maluit jactari, quam in illa tranquillitate atque otio jucundissime vivere, id. Rep. 1, 1: si deerunt haec remedia, ad illa declinandum est, Quint. 7, 2, 30: cum hic testamento, ille proximitate nitatur, id. 3, 6, 95: in his judicem sibi, in illis alii credere, id. 5, 7, 33: haec pars perorationis accusatori patronoque ex aequo communis est. Affectibus quoque iisdem fere utuntur: sed varius hic, ille saepius ac magis, id. 6, 1, 8; cf. id. 6, 2, 12; 17: cum tu ista caelestia de Scipione quaesieris, ego autem haec, quae videntur ante oculos, esse magis putem quaerenda, Cic. Rep. 1, 19; id. Fam. 2, 11, 1: iisdem enim hic sapiens, de quo loquor, oculis, quibus iste vester, caelum, terram, mare intuebitur, id. Ac. 2, 33, 105: si hoc loco scripsisset, isto verbo usus non esset, non isto loco verbum istud collocasset, id. Inv. 2, 41, 121: has igitur tot sententias ut omittamus, haec nunc videamus, quae diu multumque defensa sunt, id. Ac. 2, 42, 130: Caesar facile diceret: Hic versus Plauti non est, hic est,this ... that id. Fam. 9, 16, 4: ego hoc dico. adversarius hoc, Quint. 4, 4, 8: vendidit hic auro patriam ... Hic thalamum invasit natae, Verg. A. 6, 621 sq.: hi molium objectus, hi proximas scaphas scandere, Tac. A. 14, 8: quid responsuri sint adversarii his et his ... cum sciret haec et haec, Quint. 6, 1, 3 sq.: interim quaeritur: hoc an hoc? furtum an sacrilegium? id. 7, 3, 9: alter (Roscius) plurimarum palmarum vetus ac nobilis gladiator habetur, hic autem nuper se ad eum lanistam contulit, Cic. Rosc. Am. 6, 17: occupat hic collem, cymbā sedet alter aduncā, Ov. M. 1, 293.—

2. Referring to that which in the speaker's mind is the nearer object, although by the position of the words it is the more remote: quam ob rem cave Catoni anteponas ne istum quidem ipsum, quem Apollo sapientissimum judicavit (i. e. Socratem): Hujus enim (i. e. Catonis, of the former ) facta, illius (i. e. Socratis) dicta laudantur, Cic. Lael. 2, 10; id. Rosc. Com. 2, 7: hanc posteriorem (artem) et Stoici et Peripatetici, priorem autem illi (i. e. Peripatetici) egregie tradiderunt, hi (i. e. Stoici) ne attigerunt quidem, id. Fin. 4, 4, 10: hoc Cicero atque Asinius certatim sunt usi: pro Scauro hic, ille pro filio, Quint. 6, 1, 21; 3, 10, 1: melior tutiorque est certa pax quam sperata victoria: haec in tua, illa in deorum manu est,the former ... the latter Liv. 30, 30, 19: quocumque aspicio, nihil est, nisi pontus et aër: Fluctibus hic tumidus, nubibus ille minax, Ov. Tr. 1, 2, 24; id. M. 1, 697.—

E. In the neutr. sing. subst., with gen. : quid hoc hominist? Plaut. Am. 2, 1, 26; cf. Ter. Eun. 3, 4, 8: quid hoc morbi est? id. ib. 2, 1, 19: quid hoc est negoti? id. Ad. 4, 5, 71; cf. id. Eun. 3, 4, 6: hoc fructi pro labore ab his fero, id. Ad. 5, 4, 16: edormiscam hoc villi, id. ib. 5, 2, 11: hoc commodi est, quod, etc., Cic. Rosc. Am. 32, 91: hoc copiarum in Hispanias portatum est, Liv. 42, 18, 7: hoc servitutis injunxisse, ut, etc., id. 5, 2, 8: hoc intervalli datum res tranquillas in urbe fecit, id. 3, 25, 4: hoc consilii, id. 5, 39, 6: hoc solacii, id. 30, 13, 13: hoc noctis, Plaut. Am. 1, 1, 2; 11; 136.—

F. Hoc with verbs impers., pleonast. as a subject (ante-class.): eamus, Amphitruo: lucescit hoc jam,there is daybreak Plaut. Am. 1, 3, 45: luciscit hoc jam, Ter. Heaut. 3, 1, 1: lucet hoc, Plaut. Mil. 2, 2, 63; cf. id. Curc. 1, 3, 26.—

G. Pregn. (qs. pointing to something with the finger), this, this ... here (ante-class. and poet. ); most freq. of the speaker himself, like the Gr. οδε, for ego: hic homost omnium hominum praecipuos, Plaut. Trin. 5, 1, 1: hic si quid nobis forte adversi evenerit, tibi erunt parata verba, huic homini verbera, Ter. Heaut. 2, 3, 115; so, huic homini, i. q. mihi, Plaut. Ep. 1, 2, 38: hic homo, i. q. ego, id. Curc. 2, 1, 33: hunc hominem, i. q. me, Plaut. Bacch. 4, 4, 1; Hor. S. 1, 9, 47; cf.: vin' tu huic seni auscultare? Ter. Ad. 5, 7, 8; id. And. 2, 1, 10; Tib. 2, 6, 7: haec res,my property Plaut. Trin. 2, 4, 106: hunc in collum,my neck id. Pers. 4, 6, 9 Brix (Ritschl, huc): ni haec praesensisset canes, this dog, = ego, id. Trin. 1, 2, 135 Brix ad loc.—In neutr. absol. : tu quod te posterius purges hanc injuriam mihi nolle Factam esse, hujus non faciam, not so much, i. e. not the least, Ter. Ad. 2, 1, 9.—

H. With reference to time, of this time, now present, actual, this : cena hac annonā est sine sacris hereditas,in the present scarcity Plaut. Trin. 2, 4, 83: sed nondum haec, quae nunc tenet saeculum, neglegentia deum venerat, Liv. 3, 20: his temporibus, Cic. Fam. 13, 77, 1: M. Cato, hujus nostri Catonis pater, id. Off. 3, 16, 66; cf.: si potius ad antiquorum diligentiam, quam ad horum luxuriam dirigas aedificationem, Varr. R. R. 1, 13, 6 sq.: etenim qui haec vituperare volunt, Chrysogonum tantum posse queruntur,the present times Cic. Rosc. Am. 48, 138: ne horum quidem magnificentia operum, Liv. 1, 55 fin. ; very rarely of time just ended: ante hos annos quadraginta, Plin. 14, 22, 28, § 143: ante hos sex menses, Phaedr. 1, 1, 10: ante hoc triduum, Front. Ep. ad M. Caes. 2, 5 init. ; Aug. Serm. 270, 3.


II. Very freq. referring to a thought that follows, and which may be expressed by a relative sentence, or by a sentence denoting the object, cause, or effect; with qui, quae, quod, an acc. and inf., quod, ut, ne, etc. (more clearly indicative than the determinative, is, ea, id; though freq. confounded with it in MSS. and editt.).

(a). With relat. clause : Qui hodie fuerim liber, eum nunc potivit pater Servitutis: hic, qui verna natust, conqueritur, Plaut. Am. 1, 1, 24; cf.: eos, qui, etc.... his, qui, etc.... longe duco esse anteponendos, Cic. Rep. 1, 2: neque his contentus sum, quae de ista consultatione scripta nobis summi ex Graecia homines reliquerunt, neque ea, quae mihi videntur, anteferre illis audeo, id. ib. 1, 22: non est tibi his solis utendum existimationibus ac judiciis, qui nunc sunt, hominum, sed iis etiam, qui futuri sunt, id. Q. Fr. 1, 1, 15, § 43: quis hic est homo, quem ante aedis video hoc noctis? Plaut. Am. 1, 1, 136: unde in laboribus et periculis fortitudo? nempe ab his, qui, etc., Cic. Rep. 1, 2; 1, 17: haec quae sunt in hoc genere, id. ib. 1, 11: mundus hic totus, quod domicilium di nobis dederunt, id. ib. 1, 13: hoc autem sphaerae genus, in quo, etc., id. ib. 1, 14; 1, 16: in his libris, quos legistis, id. Leg. 1, 9, 27; cf. id. Div. 1, 3, 5: quam quisque norit artem, in hac se exerceat, id. Tusc. 1, 18, 41 et saep.: lepide ipsi hi sunt capti, suis qui filiis fecere insidias, Plaut. Bacch. 5, 2, 90; cf. Cic. Tusc. 2, 1, 3; id. N. D. 1, 40, 113: servi, qui, cum culpa carint, tamen malum Metuont, hi solent esse eris utibiles, Plaut. Most. 4, 2, 2 sq.; cf. Cic. Rep. 1, 19: de Bruti amore etsi mihi nihil novi adfers: tamen hoc audio libentius, quo saepius, id. Att. 13, 36 fin. ; cf.: is porro, quo generosior celsiorque est, hoc majoribus velut organis commovetur, Quint. 1, 2, 30: hoc primum videamus, quidnam sit, de altero sole quod nuntiatum est in senatu, etc., Cic. Rep. 1, 10; 1, 24: mire tractat hoc Cicero pro Milone quae facturus fuerit Clodius, si praeturam invasisset, Quint. 9, 2, 41.—

(b). With acc. and inf. : erat tunc haec nova et ignota ratio, solem lunae oppositum solere deficere, Cic. Rep. 1, 16: sed hoc vir excellenti providentia sensit ac vidit, non esse opportunissimos situs maritimos urbibus iis, quae, etc., id. ib. 2, 3: hoc tantum admiror, Flavum, etc., Quint. 7, 4, 40; 11, 1, 22: unum hoc definio, tantam esse necessitatem virtutis, etc., Cic. Rep. 1, 1: hoc simul accipe dictum: Quorum ..., Eorundem libertati me parcere certum est, Enn. ap. Cic. Off. 1, 12, 38 (Ann. v. 204 Vahl.); cf. with appositive clause: sic hoc proloquar: Principio, ut illo advenimus, Continuo Amphitruo delegit viros, etc., Plaut. Am. 1, 1, 48: ut hoc: Non debes alienam uxorem optare, Quint. 7, 1, 25; cf. id. 9, 4, 97; 9, 2, 32.—

(g). With quod or quia : maxime hoc mihi mirum videri solet, quod, qui tranquillo mari gubernare se negent posse, etc., Cic. Rep. 1, 6: quaesierat ex me Scipio, quidnam sentirem de hoc, quod duo soles visos esse constaret, id. ib. 1, 13; Quint. 9, 1, 1: propter hoc ipsum ostendenda non sunt, quod apparent, id. 12, 9, 6: nostri primo integris viribus fortiter repugnare ... sed hoc superari, quod diuturnitate pugnae, etc.,in this thatherein that Caes. B. G. 3, 4, 3; cf. Quint. 8, 3, 30: hoc ipso fidem detrahimus illis, quod sint tam gravia, id. 9, 2, 53: hoc ipso, quod, id. 4, 1, 54; 5, 11, 41; 6, 2, 16 et saep.: consilio vestro utar libenter, et hoc libentius, quod, etc., Caes. ap. Cic. Att. 9, 8, C, 1; cf.: id hoc facilius eis persuasit, quod undique loci natura Helvetii continentur, Caes. B. G. 1, 2, 3: hoc esse miseriorem gravioremque fortunam Sequanorum quam reliquorum, quod soli, etc., id. ib. 1, 32, 4; Quint. 5, 7, 22: hoc magis, quod (al. quia) illic ut litigatores loquimur frequentius, id. 6, 2, 36: hoc sese excruciat animi, Quia leno ademit cistulam ei, Plaut. Rud. 2, 3, 57: quod hoc etiam mirabilius debet videri, quia, etc., Cic. de Or. 1, 3, 12; cf.: hoc sunt exempla potentiora, quia, etc., Quint. 10, 1, 15.—

(d). With ut or ne : nunc hoc me orare a vobis jussit Juppiter, ut conquistores, etc., Plaut. Am. prol. 64; cf.: hoc quoque etiam mihi in mandatis dedit, Ut conquistores, etc., id. ib. 81: atque hoc evenit In labore atque in dolore, ut mors obrepat interim, id. Ps. 2, 3, 19: nec enim hoc suscepi, ut, etc. ... neque hoc polliceor me facturum, ut, etc., Cic. Rep. 1, 24: neque enim hac nos patria lege genuit aut educavit, ut ... sed ut, etc., id. ib. 1, 4; for which: homines sunt hac lege generati, qui tuerentur, etc., id. ib. 6, 15: quare hoc animo in nos esse debebis, ut aetas nostra, etc., id. Fam. 2, 1 fin. ; id. Off. 3, 5, 22; id. Rep. 1, 12: plurimum in hoc laboris exhausimus, ut ostenderemus, etc., Quint. 8 praef. § 6; cf.: habenda fides est vel in hoc, ut, etc., id. 11, 2, 51; so, in hoc, ut, id. 6, 3, 15; 10, 3, 29: hoc erit tibi argumentum semper in promptu situm: Ne quid exspectes amicos, quod tute agere possies, Enn. ap. Gell. 2, 29 fin. (Sat. v. 37 Vahl.); so, in hoc scilicet, ne suspectus his foret, Vell. 2, 41 fin. —

B. Hoc est serves to annex a more particular explanation of what has been said, that is, that is to say, namely : in hac causa dicam de eo prius, quod apud vos plurimum debet valere, hoc est, de voluntate eorum, quibus injuriae factae sunt, Cic. Div. in Caecil. 4, 11: quadriennium, hoc est, ex quo tempore fundus veniit, id. Caecin. 7, 19; 34, 100: cum honos agebatur amplissimus familiae vestrae, hoc est, consulatus parentis tui, id. Sull. 17, 49; id. Fam. 5, 12, 8: primum quaero, qua ratione Naevius susceptum negotium non transegerit, hoc est, cur bona non vendiderit, id. Quint. 24, 76 et saep.—Sarcastically: ut haberet (Clodius) ad praeturam gerendam, hoc est, ad evertendam rem publicam plenum annum, Cic. Mil. 9, 24: at quam crebro usurpat Et consul et Antonius! Hoc est dicere: Et consul et homo impudicissimus, Et consul et homo nequissimus, id. Phil. 2, 28, 70.—

C. Hoc est or ĕrat, quod, with the accessory idea of indignation or reproach, is or was it for this that, etc.: hoc erat, alma parens, quod me per tela, per ignis Eripis, ut mediis hostem in penetralibus ... cernam? Verg. A. 2, 664; Petr. 93.—Hence,


III. Advv.

1. hāc, in this place, on this side, this way, here (class.): nunc Juppiter hac stat, Enn. ap. Macr. S. 6, 1 (Ann. v. 263 Vahl.); imitated by Verg. A. 12, 565: Ar. Hac quidem non venit. Le. Angiporto Illac per hortum circuit clam, Plaut. As. 3, 3, 151: nunc hac An illac eam, incerta sum consili, id. Rud. 1, 3, 30: plenus rimarum sum: hac atque illac perfluo, Ter. Eun. 1, 2, 25; cf.: hac illac circumcursa, id. Heaut. 3, 2, 1; and: mox hac atque illa rapti, Tac. Agr. 28: sequere hac, reducam te ubi fuisti,this wayhither Plaut. Capt. 3, 5, 106; id. As. 4, 2, 1; id. Men. 4, 1, 4; id. Poen. 1, 2, 116; id. Rud. 1, 2, 94; cf.: sequere hac me intus ad Glycerium nunc, Ter. And. 5, 6, 14: sequere me ergo hac intro, id. Ad. 4, 3, 18: i hac mecum intro, Plaut. Bacch. 5, 2, 56; 62; Ter. Ad. 4, 2, 35 sq.: quin igitur ad illa spatia nostra pergimus? ... Nos vero: et hac quidem adire si placet, per ripam et umbram, Cic. Leg. 1, 4, 14: ab oppido declivis locus tenui fastigio vergebat. Hac nostris erat receptus, Caes. B. C. 1, 45, 5; 2, 2, 3.—Hac-hac, for hac-illac ( poet. ): namque videbat, uti bellantes Pergama circum Hac fugerent Grai, Hac Phryges, Verg. A. 1, 467 sq.; Prop. 1, 3, 13; rarely in full form with the interrog. particle ne : utrum hacin feriam an ab laeva latus? Plaut. Cist. 3, 10 (cf. Ladewig, Anal. Scaen. p. 22). —

2. hīc (old form heic; and with the interrog. part. ne, hicine), adv. loci, in this place, here.

I. In space.

A. Lit. : hos quos videtis stare hic captivos duos, etc. ... Senex qui hic habitat, etc., Plaut. Capt. prol. 1 sq.: ego jam dudum hic adsum, Ter. Eun. 4, 6, 5: quem praestolare hic ante ostium? id. ib. 5, 6, 5: hic propter hunc adsiste, id. Ad. 2, 1, 15: hic tui omnes valent, Cic. Fam. 6, 20, 3: non modo hic, ubi, etc.. . sed, ubicumque, etc., id. Verr. 2, 5, 55, § 143: mons ibi arduus Nomine Parnasus ... hic ubi Deucalion ... parva rate vectus adhaesit, Ov. M. 1, 319: hic (sc. Carthagine) illius (Junonis) arma, Hic currus fuit, Verg. A. 1, 16 et saep.: Pa. Philocomasium hicine etiam nunc est? Pe Quom exibam, hic erat, Plaut. Mil. 2, 2, 25; cf.: Ch. Ubi ego sum? hicine an apud mortuos? Eut. Neque apud mortuos neque hic es, id. Merc. 3, 4, 17: hicine, id. Cist. 1, 1, 21; 4, 2, 80; Ter. Ad. 2, 1, 29 al.: Da. Cedo fenus, redde fenus, fenus reddite, etc.... Tr. Fenus illic, fenus hic, Plaut. Most. 3, 1, 76: facile hic plus mali est, quam illic boni, Ter. And. 4, 3, 5; cf. id. Hec. 2, 1, 20: hic segetes, illic veniunt felicius uvae, Verg. G. 1, 54: hic, illic, ubi mors deprenderat, exhalantes, Ov. M. 7, 581 (cf. Krebs, Antibarb. p. 519).—With gen. : hic proxume viciniae,in this neighborhood Plaut. Mil. 2, 3, 2: modo vidi virginem hic viciniae miseram, Ter. Phorm. 1, 2, 45.— With ne : hicine libertatem aiunt aequam esse omnibus? is it here that, etc., Ter. Ad. 2, 1, 29 (cf. hic, I. B. fin. ).—

B. Transf., in this affair, on this occasion, in this particular, herein, here : hic, quantum in bello fortuna possit, cognosci potuit, Caes. B. G. 6, 35, 2; Cic. Verr. 1, 16, 49: hic tu tabulas desideras Heracliensium publicas, id. Arch. 4, 8; cf.: hic vos dubitabitis, judices, id. Verr. 2, 2, 44, § 109: hic miramur, hunc hominem tantum excellere ceteris? etc., id. de Imp. Pomp. 13, 39: hic jam plura non dicam, id. ib. 9, 24; id. Planc. 41, 99; id. Verr. 2, 1, 26, § 66 (cf. II. fin. infra): hic, ubi opus est, non verentur: illic, ubi nihil opus est, ibi verentur, Ter. And. 4, 1, 14: ut cum hic tibi satisfecerimus, istic quoque nostram in te benevolentiam navare possimus, Cic. Fam. 3, 10, 3.—Referring to the noun whose position in the sentence is the most remote (cf. I. D. 2.): alterius ducis causa melior videbatur, alterius erat firmior: hic omnia speciosa, illic valentia, Vell. 2, 49, 3.—

II. Of time, i. q. nunc or tum, now, here; then, hereupon, at this time, at this juncture : hic reddes omnia, Ter. And. 2, 3, 15: hic ego quid praedicem? Cic. Sest. 5, 12; id. Cat. 1, 10, 26: hic cum uterque me intueretur, id. Fin. 2, 1, 1; so, hic cum, id. Tusc. 5, 20, 60; Nep. Milt. 3, 3: hic tum Fabricius frequentes eos ad me domum adduxit, Cic. Clu. 17, 49; so, hic tum, id. ib 20, 56; 27, 73; id. Verr. 2, 1, 26 § 66 al.: hic regina gravem poposcit pateram, Verg. A. 1, 728.—So very freq. to introduce the beginning of a speech: hic Laelius (inquit); hic Philus; hic Scipio, etc., Cic. Rep. 1, 13, 23; 24 sq.; id. Fam. 1, 9, 10; 3, 8, 3; 5, 15, 4; id. Ac. 2, 4, 10; id. de Or. 2, 50, 202; Verg. A. 9, 246 et saep.—

3. huc (access. form hoc), v. huc.




Ich hoffe, ich habe mit meinen Markierungen keine Formen übersehen.


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Posts: 17

Fri Nov 04, 2011 6:16 pm
#5 RE: HICNE Quote · reply

Zitat von linhart
Die Wörter hice, haece, ..., hicine, haecine, ... belasten mich momentan weniger, weil sie alle fein säuberlich in der Spellcheckerliste stehen. Aber hicne, haecne, ... müsste ich eigens eingeben, und das freut mich nicht besonders, wie du dir vorstellen kannst. Deshalb habe ich begonnen, nachzudenken, ob diese Formen wirklich in die Liste gehören.



Linhart, wir müssen selber denken, statt uns auf andere, wie z.B. Spellchecker, zu verlassen.

Das macht unsere Professionalität aus!

Und mit dem Selberdenken hast du löblicherweise ja schon angefangen!

A propos Professionalität: Ich denke in diesem Zusammenhang auch an etwas, was mir unser Rektor an der Schule neulich in einem Mitarbeitergespräch gesagt hatte und was genau in diese Richtung ging. Ich fühlte mich durch diesen Kommentar des Rektors in meinem Zuwegegehen im Unterricht bestärkt!

Zurück zum Thema:

Wieso stehen Formen wie hicine, haecine usw. in der Spellcheckerliste drin, hicne und haecne usw. aber nicht?
Ich beginne mir die Frage zu stellen, ob es die Formen hicne und haecne überhaupt gibt?

Aber: Formen mit der enklitischen Fragepartikel -ne wollten wir ja sowieso grundsätzlich nicht ins latin.dic aufnehmen.



Fortsetzung folgt...


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Posts: 17

Fri Nov 04, 2011 11:37 pm
#6 RE: HICNE Quote · reply

Zitat von L&S
B. More emphatic, in the original full form, hīce, haece, hōce (not, as formerly written, hicce, haecce, hocce; in gen. sing. HVIVSQVE; in nom. plur. hisce, like ieis = ei, and ques = qui, see below; and apocopated in nom. plur. fem. haec for haece, and in gen. plur. horunc, harunc, for horunce, harunce); and, with the interrogative particle, hicine, haecine, hocine (mostly ante - class.): hoce haud dubium est quin, etc., Ter. And. 2, 3, 17: eum hinc profugiens vendidit in Alide Patri hujusce, Plaut. Capt. prol. 10; so, hujusce, id. Poen. prol. 120; 5, 4, 76; 87; cf.: atque hujusce rei judicium jam continuo video futurum, Cic. Div. in Caecil. 14, 47: hisce homines ubi habitent, Plaut. Trin. 4, 2, 36; v. Ritschl ad h. l.; so, hisce, id. Ps. 1, 5, 125; id. Capt. prol. 35 Fleck.; id. Rud. 2, 1, 5 ib., and perh. also id. Mil. 4, 8, 24 (Ritschl, hice): hice, Att. ap. Non. 15, 29 (Trag. Rel. v. 122 Rib.); Ter. Eun. 2, 2, 38: haec aedes, Plaut. Most. 2, 1, 53; 3, 1, 117; so, haec sunt atque aliae multae in magnis dotibus Incommoditates, id. Aul. 3, 5, 58: haec (puellae), Ter. Eun. 3, 5, 34: haec sententiae, Cic. Tusc. 1, 11, 22; 3, 34, 84; Lucr. 3, 601; Verg. G. 3, 305; cf. Bentl. Ter. Hec. 5, 2, 24: aliut posticum harunce aedium, Plaut. Stich. 3, 1, 41; cf.: harunc aedium, id. Most. 2, 1, 57: sine opera tua nihil di horunc facere possunt, id. Cist. 1, 1, 53: horunc, id. Poen. 3, 1, 48; Ter. Hec. 1, 2, 97; id. Phorm. 3, 2, 33: cedo signum, si harunc Baccharum es, Plaut. Mil. 4, 2, 25: harunc aedium, id. Merc. 5, 1, 3: hisce ego Placidum ted hodie reddam, id. Curc. 5, 3, 48; cf.: quid dicam hisce, incertus sum, Ter. Hec. 3, 4, 36: tu ab hisce rebus animum avoca, Sulp. in Cic. Fam. 4, 5, 5; so, hisce, Plaut. Cas. 2, 7, 13; id. Most. 1, 3, 81; 1, 4, 23; 2, 2, 71; 4, 2, 35 et saep.: Thr. Tu hosce instrue. Gn Illuc est sapere! ut hosce instruxit, Ter. Eun. 4, 7, 11; so, hosce, id. ib. 1, 2, 71; id. Heaut. 3, 2, 3; 4, 5, 4; id. Ad. 5, 7, 5; id. Phorm. 4, 3, 4: apud hasce aedes, Plaut. Am. 1, 1, 194; so, hasce, id. As. 2, 3, 1; id. Aul. 2, 4, 2; 2, 8, 15; id. Capt. 4, 2, 51; id. Bacch. 4, 6, 17 et saep.— With the interrog. particle: hicin' Achilles est? Plaut. Mil. 1, 1, 61; so, hicinest? id. Pers. 5, 2, 49; cf.: hicine vir patriae natus usquam nisi in patria morietur? Cic. Mil. 38, 104 et saep.: haecine, Plaut. Am. 1, 1, 206; id. Ep. 4, 2, 5; 5, 1, 15; id. Pers. 4, 3, 75; Ter. Hec. 5, 2, 5; id. Phorm. 5, 8, 24: huncine hominem, Plaut. Ps. 1, 2, 68; cf.: huncine hominem! hancine impudentiam! judices, hanc audaciam! Cic. Verr. 2, 5, 25, § 62: hocine hic pacto potest Inhibere imperium magister? Plaut. Bacch. 3, 3, 43: o Juppiter, hoscine mores! Ter. Ad. 4, 7, 40: hacine victoria sola aut hac praeda contenti estis futuri, Liv. 10, 17, 5; Ter. Hec. 3, 1, 3; so in the shorter form, hicne, Cic. Rosc. Am. 48, 141: ex hocne equo, id. Fat. 3, 5: cum hocne, id. Att. 9, 7, 3: ex hacne natura, id. Tusc. 1, 25, 62: haece locutus, Enn. ap. Gell. 12, 4 (Ann. v. 239 Vahl.) al.—So, Fortuna hujusce diei, as a particular deity, Cic. Leg. 2, 11, 28; Plin. 34, 8, 19, § 54; in inscrr. also written HVIVSQVE DIEI, Inscr. Orell. 5; cf.: HVIVSQ. LOCI, id. ib. 1580; 2300; and HOIVSQVE AEDIS ERGO, id. ib. 2488.—



Etymologisch ist hic, haec, hoc durch Fusion mit der enklitischen Partikel -ce, die wir z.B. auch in ecce wiederfinden, entstanden. Daher handelt es sich bei den Formen hīce, haece, hōce einfach um sprachgeschichtlich ältere Formen als die klassisch lateinischen und uns geläufigeren kürzeren Formen hic, haec, hoc.

Wie wir beim Überfliegen des relevanten Passus im L&S sehen, finden sich die meisten Belege für diese älteren Formen auch bei Plautus, Terenz und Ennius, gelegentlich auch bei Cicero.

Demnach sind alle diese älteren Formen auf -ce zulässig. Wie diese Beugungsformen im einzelnen auszusehen haben, werden wir später beleuchten.
Prinzipiell geht es hier erst mal um die Zulässigkeit der Formen als solche.

Also: HICE, HAECE, HOCE sind zulässig.

Bei den Formen hicine, haecine, hocine handelt es sich jedoch um Formen, an die die enklitische Fragepartikel -ne angehängt ist, also eigentlich hice-ne, haece-ne, hoce-ne. Das ursprünglich auslautende e von hice, haece, hoce erfuhr durch das Anhängen von -ne eine Dissimilation und entwickelte sich zum -i-. Da wir gesagt haben, dass grundsätzlich keine Formen mit der enklitischen Fragepartikel -ne Scrabble-tauglich sind, sind die Formen HICINE, HAECINE, HOCINE unzulässig, ebenso alle dazugehörigen Beugungsformen auf -ne, -n oder -n' vor anlautendem Vokal (wie z.B. hicin', hacin.

Wenn hicine, haecine, hocine und die dazugehörigen Beugungsformen alle fein säuberlich in der Spellcheckerliste stehen, dann ist das für eine Rechtschreibkontrolle wohl richtig; wir hingegen verfolgen ein ganz anderes Ziel und müssen uns leider von der Spellcheckerliste distanzieren!

Auch bei den Formen hicne, haecne, hocne handelt es sich um Formen, an die die enklitische Fragepartikel -ne angehängt ist, nur dass hier eben die sprachgeschichtlich jüngeren Formen hic, haec, hoc zugrunde liegen. Auch die Formen HICNE, HAECNE, HOCNE mitsamt den dazugehörigen Beugungsformen sind demnach unzulässig.


Damit wäre schon mal mein Stoßseufzerproblem vom Beitrag #2 grundsätzlich gelöst. Uff!

Als Nächstes möchte ich das Deklinationsparadigma für HICE, HAECE, HOCE im Singular und Plural erstellen. Oder hast du diese Formen alle schon, Linhart? Wenn ja, und wenn es nicht zu viele Umstände bereitet, dann poste die bitte mal, denn dann würde ich mir einige Arbeit ersparen.

Aufpassen müssen wir auch bei den normalerweise auf -m auslautenden Stammformen, bei denen das m an das folgende c der angehängten Partikel -ce assimiliert wurde:
harum-ce -> harunce!

Stellt sich auch die Frage, was wir mit Formen wie harunc machen sollen, wo e-Elision vorliegt. Lassen sich diese verallgemeinern oder handelt es sich um einzelne Sonderformen?

--> Demnächst in diesem Theater!


-----------------------

NB:

Zu hic, haec, hoc siehe auch

• Rubenbauer/Hofmann § 56
• Bennett - http://www.gutenberg.org/files/15665/156...65-h.htm#sect87 und Fußnote http://www.gutenberg.org/files/15665/156...665-h.htm#Nt_23


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linhart Offline




Posts: 2.493

Sat Nov 05, 2011 6:04 am
#7 RE: HICNE Quote · reply

Hier sind die Wörter vom Typus hice, welche in der Spellcheckerliste stehen:

hice
haece
hoce
[hiusce]
huice
hunce
hance
hace
horumce
harumce
hisce
hosce
hasce
huiusce

Ich habe hiusce eingeklammert, weil es mir nicht richtig erscheint.

Bei horumce und harumce ist zu überlegen, ob das m einen Fehler oder eine alternative Schreibweise darstellt.


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