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 Irish Gaelic - Gaeilge
Bussinchen Online




Posts: 17

Sun Aug 28, 2011 9:06 pm
The Irish letter set Quote · reply

Dear kscanne,

you have shown us the link to Wikipedia, where we can find the Irish letter set:

Zitat
Irish-language sets use these 100 tiles:

2 blank tiles (scoring 0 points)
1 point: A ×13, H ×10, I ×10, N ×7, R ×7, E ×6, S ×6
2 points: C ×4, D ×4, L ×4, O ×4, T ×4, G ×3, U ×3
4 points: F ×2, M ×2, Á ×2, Í ×2
8 points: É ×1, Ó ×1, Ú ×1
10 points: B ×1, P ×1





Letter Number Value

A 13 1 Á 2 4 B 1 10 C 4 2 D 4 2 E 6 1 É 1 8 F 2 4
G 3 2 H 10 1 I 10 1 Í 2 4 L 4 2 M 2 4 N 7 1
O 4 2 Ó 1 8 P 1 10 R 7 1 S 6 1 T 4 2 U 3 2 Ú 1 8

Joker 2 0

Total 100

---------------------------------

Letter Number Value

A 13 1
Á 2 4
B 1 10
C 4 2
D 4 2
E 6 1
É 1 8
F 2 4
G 3 2
H 10 1
I 10 1
Í 2 4
L 4 2
M 2 4
N 7 1
O 4 2
Ó 1 8
P 1 10
R 7 1
S 6 1
T 4 2
U 3 2
Ú 1 8


Joker 2 0

Total 100


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Bussinchen Online




Posts: 17

Sun Aug 28, 2011 9:54 pm
#2 RE: The Irish letter set Quote · reply

Hello Kevin!

You wrote:

Zitat von kscanne
There is an "official" tile set, described here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scrabble_le...ributions#Irish
I'm inclined to try the digraph approach that Michael is using for Scottish though. [...]



What do you mean when you say "official" tile set? Why do you put official between quotation marks?
Isn't it the tile set used in the real board game you can buy in toyshops?

Shouldn't we in our virtuel Scrabble3D use the same letter set that people know from the real board game?
People could be confused if they suddenly meet in Scrabble3D a totally different letter set with digraphs they never have seen before...

For each other language we use the official letter set and try as far as possible to follow the official game rules*) established by National Scrabble Federations/Associations... These rules, however, can differ a lot from the rules that you can read in the booklet of the board game. Only if there is no official National Scrabble Association, and if there is no version of the board game available on the market, like for Farsi/Persian language, we create our own letter set and our own rules.

I would like to know your reasons for using a different letter set with digraphs.

Best regards,
Bussinchen

--------------------------

*) Please look here: Internationale Spielregeln im Vergleich (in German only, I apologize for that inconvienient)


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kscanne Offline



Posts: 31

Sun Aug 28, 2011 10:04 pm
#3 RE: The Irish letter set Quote · reply

I guess what I'd like to know is if it's possible to distribute the official tile set as well as an alternate one that uses digraphs. I'd like to at least experiment with this (Michael's shown me the nice demo feature) in any case.

The reason I'm interested in trying is that I feel like the tile distribution in the official game is broken/suboptimal - too many h's for one thing. We've seen reviews to this effect from Irish speakers.


akerbeltzalba Offline




Posts: 142

Sun Aug 28, 2011 10:21 pm
#4 RE: The Irish letter set Quote · reply

It's not such a big deal to have a different ruleset. The problem with small languages is that often, there is less data/research into something like this and the results are often poor. The German Scrabble set had loads of corpus data and there are many standard dictionaries... Scots Gaelic doesn't even have a standard spelling :/ Irish isn't quite that bad but it's similar.

Overall, it's more important for a small language to have a *good* game, rather than one that just conforms to something.


Bussinchen Online




Posts: 17

Mon Aug 29, 2011 1:41 am
#5 RE: The Irish letter set Quote · reply

Yes I understand, Kevin!

It would be possible to distribute two sets, but as far as I know Scotty, he does not like to implement two (!) different default letter sets for one language in the pulldown menu in Scrabble3D. We have speculated about e.g. different settings for British and American English in the Config Assistant, but now we have only one. One language = one standard setting.

But of course you can try out different letter sets yourself.

When you have created your letter set with digraphs, you can configure it directly in Configuration > Settings > Letters. But you can also publish it here in this thread, and then it is easy to copy it from here and paste it as a whole set into the table on Configuration > Settings > Letters. Right click somewhere on the table and chose Paste. Then you can type for example "Irish test set" in the field at the bottom and save that setting (i.e. actually all the selected settings) as a Preset by clicking on the button Save.

In the official letter set, I guess that H is so frequent because of the very common H front hook you talked about in your first posting in the thread Irish version. Maybe that's a boring way to play, but it allows to make many points! ;-)

Zitat von kscanne
Taking the diagraph approach, "H" becomes a bit of a special case - most words in Irish that start with a vowel permit free addition of an H at the beginning. This makes it a bit boring for Scrabble play, so I'm inclined to just drop H entirely.


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akerbeltzalba Offline




Posts: 142

Mon Aug 29, 2011 1:48 am
#6 RE: The Irish letter set Quote · reply

In that case some testing of both versions is needed and then go with the better one, whichever that is. It's open software after all. Perhaps Aonghas would be willing to test it too?


kscanne Offline



Posts: 31

Wed Aug 31, 2011 8:39 pm
#7 RE: The Irish letter set Quote · reply

Here is a draft of tile counts/points for the Irish game using digraphs:


A 13 1 Á 4 2 B 1 5 Ḃ 1 4 C 3 2 Ċ 3 2 D 3 2 Ḋ 1 4 E 5 1 É 1 4
F 2 3 Ḟ 1 10 G 2 2 Ġ 1 5 I 10 1 Í 4 1 L 5 1 M 3 2 Ṁ 1 4 N 6 1
O 5 1 Ó 2 3 P 1 8 Ṗ 1 10 R 6 1 S 4 1 Ṡ 1 8 T 4 1 Ṫ 1 3 U 2 4 Ú 1 4


-----------------------------


A 13 1
Á 4 2
B 1 5
Ḃ 1 4
C 3 2
Ċ 3 2
D 3 2
Ḋ 1 4
E 5 1
É 1 4
F 2 3
Ḟ 1 10
G 2 2
Ġ 1 5
I 10 1
Í 4 1
L 5 1
M 3 2
Ṁ 1 4
N 6 1
O 5 1
Ó 2 3
P 1 8
Ṗ 1 10
R 6 1
S 4 1
Ṡ 1 8
T 4 1
Ṫ 1 3
U 2 4
Ú 1 4


98 non-blank tiles, and 187 total points, same as English and official Irish versions.

I still need to test more, but posting here so akerbeltz can copy/paste and play me in a network game!


[TILE SET'S FORMATTING EDITED BY BUSSINCHEN]


akerbeltzalba Offline




Posts: 142

Wed Aug 31, 2011 9:05 pm
#8 RE: The Irish letter set Quote · reply

Zitat
and 187 total points, same as English and official Irish versions.



There's a total points guidelines? I may have to revisit the points for Gaelic letters but that can wait till the next release, this a pre-alpha as we're in novelty land doing a language with no prior set.


kscanne Offline



Posts: 31

Wed Aug 31, 2011 10:29 pm
#9 RE: The Irish letter set Quote · reply

I don't know that it's an official guideline, but I thought there'd be some value in having the same total, at least for comparison between scores in games across languages. You'd know that 500 points is more-or-less equally awesome.


kscanne Offline



Posts: 31

Thu Sep 01, 2011 5:31 pm
#10 RE: The Irish letter set Quote · reply

Improved distribution, based on linhart's input. The proportion of vowels with accents vs. without has gone up; interestingly this may go to remedy one of the criticisms we've seen of the standard tile set.


A 11 1 Á 5 1 B 2 3 Ḃ 2 3 C 3 2 Ċ 3 2 D 3 2 Ḋ 1 4 E 4 1 É 2 3
F 1 4 Ḟ 1 10 G 3 2 Ġ 1 4 I 8 1 Í 5 1 L 5 1 M 3 2 Ṁ 1 5 N 5 1
O 4 1 Ó 3 2 P 1 8 Ṗ 1 10 R 5 1 S 4 1 Ṡ 1 8 T 3 2 Ṫ 2 3 U 2 3 Ú 3 2


---------------------------------


A 11 1
Á 5 1
B 2 3
Ḃ 2 3
C 3 2
Ċ 3 2
D 3 2
Ḋ 1 4
E 4 1
É 2 3
F 1 4
Ḟ 1 10
G 3 2
Ġ 1 4
I 8 1
Í 5 1
L 5 1
M 3 2
Ṁ 1 5
N 5 1
O 4 1
Ó 3 2
P 1 8
Ṗ 1 10
R 5 1
S 4 1
Ṡ 1 8
T 3 2
Ṫ 2 3
U 2 3
Ú 3 2


akerbeltzalba Offline




Posts: 142

Fri Sep 02, 2011 12:56 am
#11 RE: The Irish letter set Quote · reply

Interesting. That may also be the reason why the first few sets for Gaelic were a little off and had to be tweaked. I'm happy with the set we have just now but I may ask you to run you magic scripts over Gaelic too to see what happens :)


Bussinchen Online




Posts: 17

Fri Sep 02, 2011 7:21 am
#12 RE: The Irish letter set Quote · reply

Zitat von kscanne
Improved distribution, based on linhart's input. The proportion of vowels with accents vs. without has gone up; interestingly this may go to remedy one of the criticisms we've seen of the standard tile set.



Will that letter set be the Irish letter set in upcoming Scrabble3D Patch 24?


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kscanne Offline



Posts: 31

Fri Sep 02, 2011 1:11 pm
#13 RE: The Irish letter set Quote · reply

Yes, this is the best distribution. Thanks!


Bussinchen Online




Posts: 17

Fri Sep 02, 2011 1:40 pm
#14 RE: The Irish letter set Quote · reply

Thank you! Well done!

[I have edited the formatting of the tile set in your posting. Now it is easier to copy it from here into the Scrabble3D letter table.}


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