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 Νέα Ελληνικά - Modern Greek - Neugriechisch
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Scotty Offline

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Posts: 3.609

Mon Oct 15, 2012 5:35 pm
Unknown words in greek dictionary Quote · reply

Athanasia reported on SF.net that greek dictionary contains some unknown words. For example ΜΠΟΥΜ.

https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?func=br...610&atid=873924


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linhart Offline




Posts: 2.484

Mon Oct 15, 2012 7:30 pm
#2 RE: Unknown words in greek dictionary Quote · reply

ΜΠΟΥΜ is definitely contained in the official Greek Scrabble List. I found it in my paper version of the list.
It means "boom". (See http://www.kypros.org/cgi-bin/lexicon.)

You may check this word e.g. also on the following lexicon:
http://www.greek-language.gr/greekLang/m...CE%A5%CE%9C&dq=

But if there are other words which may not be correct, please tell me. I will check them.


Bussinchen Offline




Posts: 17

Mon Oct 15, 2012 10:06 pm
#3 RE: Unknown words in greek dictionary Quote · reply

I confirm:

The word ΜΠΟΥΜ is found in Οι λεξεις 2-8 γραμματων on page 254 indeed, and, as Linhart said, in Το Λεξικό της κοινής νεοελληνικής Τριανταφυλλίδη (Triantafyllides) as well.

So when playing Scrabble in Greek ΜΠΟΥΜ is a valid word.


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asourvin ( Guest )
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Tue Oct 23, 2012 6:47 pm
#4 RE: Unknown words in greek dictionary Quote · reply

I don't know the way you use to play scrabble in your countries but here, in Greece, rules of board scrabble are very strict.The player is not allowed to put words that are not actually greek (such as "ΜΠΟΥΜ"(=boom), "ΣΚΑΝ"(=scan), "ΑΣΑΝΣΕΡ"(=elevator), "ΧΙΤ"(=hit) etc.) or idioms even if we use it in our everyday language.That is the exact point of diffiulty in this game.Even if I accept that words like previous are right, I cannot recognise words like "ΝΟΣΗΣΤΕ" or "ΑΩΡΑ" as greek.Check about them if you want.I have attached the associated screenshots here https://sourceforge.net/p/scrabble/bugs/3/
Also, once you place a word, all other words that have already been placed should be combined with the new one so that in every horizontical or vertical axis valid words exist.So when computer places a right word but at the same time words like "ΑΕ" or "ΙΑ" are formed and they are accepted as right ones it seems to me a bit unfamiliar.


Scotty Offline

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Tue Oct 23, 2012 7:33 pm
#5 RE: Unknown words in greek dictionary Quote · reply

Welcome at the forum, asourvin! Basic rules are the same all over the world. Bussinchen takes care about tournament settings which differ slightly. She prepared a nice summary here: Comparison of International Scrabble Rules in Scrabble3D.
I believe all words are valid and can be found in the official list for Greek Scrabble. Probably Bussinchen and Linhart (the maintainers of the dictionary) will add more qualified comment.
PS: I'm always wondering about anglicisms in German dictionary too ;-).


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Bussinchen Offline




Posts: 17

Tue Oct 23, 2012 9:18 pm
#6 RE: Unknown words in greek dictionary Quote · reply

Dear asourvin,

Later on, when I will be at home, I'll check up the words you mentioned. Where I'm sitting just now, I don't have the book Οι λέξεις 2-8 γραμμάτων. But at home I have.

In the meantime i recommend you to read here:
Modern Greek Dictionary: neo-hellenic.dic (2)

You could check up yourself in Triantafyllides, if the words you are critisizing really are in that dictionary or not.

Bussinchen


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Bussinchen Offline




Posts: 17

Wed Oct 24, 2012 1:12 am
#7 RE: Unknown words in greek dictionary Quote · reply

Dear asourvin,

Now I have checked all the words you mentioned and critisized as non valid in your post. The book Οι λεξεις 2-8 γραμματων is the Official Greek Tournament Word List for valid words in Scrabble. And I found that all those words are CORRECT and VALID.


"ΜΠΟΥΜ"(=boom) --> is found in Οι λεξεις 2-8 γραμματων on page 254 / is found in Το Λεξικό της κοινής νεοελληνικής Τριανταφυλλίδη as well

"ΣΚΑΝ"(=scan) --> is found in Οι λεξεις 2-8 γραμματων on page 350 / cf. Triantafyllides http://www.greek-language.gr/greekLang/m...CE%91%CE%9D&dq=

"ΑΣΑΝΣΕΡ"(=elevator) --> is found in Οι λεξεις 2-8 γραμματων on page 56 / cf. Triantafyllides http://www.greek-language.gr/greekLang/m...CE%95%CE%A1&dq=

"ΧΙΤ"(=hit) --> is found in Οι λεξεις 2-8 γραμματων on page 426

"ΝΟΣΗΣΤΕ" --> is found in Οι λεξεις 2-8 γραμματων on page 264

"ΑΩΡΑ" --> is found in Οι λεξεις 2-8 γραμματων on page 70

Please read the website of the Greek Scrabble Federation:
http://www.greekscrabble.gr/
http://www.greekscrabble.gr/index.php?op...id=12&Itemid=61

- and the website of the Scrabble Club of Kastoria:
http://scrabblegreek.blogspot.se/p/blog-page_16.html

As Scotty said, sometimes really difficult words you never have heard before or you thought were taken from another language are valid words indeed.

I hope I have been able to help you a little bit.
Cheers
Bussinchen


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asourvin ( Guest )
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Thu Oct 25, 2012 9:55 pm
#8 RE: Unknown words in greek dictionary Quote · reply

Dear Bussinchen,
first of all I have to give you congratulations cause you have materialized a very difficult and really appreciated task.I' m sure that it took you much time,didn't it?
Well it was my firt time that I see that kind of rules here http://www.greekscrabble.gr/index.php?op...id=12&Itemid=61 as fas as scrabble is concerned.I didn't know that in tournaments the rules are differnet from the board scrabble that we used to play.Since I play scrabble from my early years I remember undoubtfully that outlandish words are not allowed.That's the reason why Scrabble3D was seen so weird to me.So Ι discussed with some pepole from my destination about this issue.They told me that as we know it from board game you can't place a foreign word but they have noticed that scrabble games on internet accept these words and not only them.They told me also that that's their complain because that kind confuse them and they don't play with the rules that they used to.The exact expression that they used was that on internet the game is..whatever.
Next days I'll have in my hands the printed matter from the original board scrabble game and I'll check about it.Now,if you want to have the Scrabble3D game with the tournament's rules it's your choice and I can't interfere ,besides you constructed it!But if you want to make the difference from the other scrabble games that exist already on internet it's up to you to make a dictionary in accordance to the printed matter.
Each choice will be respected.On any option I 'll upload the associated form paper in order to talk with evidence.
Apart from alla these what about words "ΙΑ" and "ΑΕ" that I mentioned?
Trully yours,
Athanasia.


Scotty Offline

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Thu Oct 25, 2012 10:58 pm
#9 RE: Unknown words in greek dictionary Quote · reply

Zitat von Gast im Beitrag #8
Each choice will be respected.
One can create categories for words the dictionary. Then you can choose if foreign words should be used or not. But it's a lot of work to check each item. And I guess even with Bussinchen's comprehensive language know-how she is not experienced enough to categorize Greek words.
PS: All other rules can be configured by yourself. E.g. time limitation as in tournaments or no limit.


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Bussinchen Offline




Posts: 17

Fri Oct 26, 2012 1:34 am
#10 RE: Unknown words in greek dictionary Quote · reply

Thank you, dear asourvin / Athanasia!

As Scotty said, it is possible to put foreign words in a separate category which you can activate, if you want to play accordingly to the official tournament rules, and disable if you won't do that. Of course this would be a very fine idea. But what does this mean in reality?

Yes, that means that you have to check through all the 414440 words in our greek.dic one by one and to put all the foreign words you found into a separate category. Since I don't speak Modern Greek (even though I can read it because I have knowledge of Ancient Greek), this is a work I definitely cannot do. In that case I think we would need some Open Source minded Greek native speaker who would like to collaborate with us in order to improve the greek.dic of Scrabble3D, which is a really huge work...



ΑΕ and ΙΑ are in the official Greek Tournament List Οι λεξεις 2-8 γραμματων, ΑΕ on page 15 and ΙΑ on page 179.

Unfortunately I cannot tell you the signification of these words. They might be interjections or maybe onomatopoetic words (ΙΑ could be the sound of the voice of a donkey... maybe...)


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Athanasia ( Guest )
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Fri Oct 26, 2012 2:26 pm
#11 RE: Unknown words in greek dictionary Quote · reply

It would have been unfair from me if I had made all these comments without having the willing to help!I'm a native speaker of greek language and I would be glad to co-operate with you.I have already suggested that!But the whole thing has not only to do with outlandish words.From the words which consist of 2 letters only articles are allowed and there are other rules that I don't remember them exactly now.For example surely "ΙΑ" is not legal but I don't remember the exact rule right now.Obviously I have to find the paper..


Athanasia ( Guest )
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Wed Oct 31, 2012 9:28 pm
#12 RE: Unknown words in greek dictionary Quote · reply

Here is the printed matter, the text inside the red circle is what we 're talking about.
Translation: Authorized words
All the words that are placed in the Greek Dictionary are allowed except for proper names, and generally all the words that begin with capital letters, those that have apostrophe or abbreviations and foreign, indeclinable words.

You haven't the right to get a letter that you have placed on the table, unless your opponents have made an objection to the word and has been accepted.

I'm waiting for your thoughts




Bussinchen Offline




Posts: 17

Thu Nov 01, 2012 1:03 am
#13 RE: Unknown words in greek dictionary Quote · reply

Zitat von Gast im Beitrag #12
All the words that are placed in the Greek Dictionary are allowed except for proper names, and generally all the words that begin with capital letters, those that have apostrophe or abbreviations and foreign, indeclinable words.


This rule is general. It is the same for every language in any country. And I imagine that this is the rule for Official Scrabble Tournaments in Greek language as well.

But for Scrabble3D, there are two problems:

1. "Greek Dictionary" is too general. Which one? I think that there are several Greek dictionaries. Of course, if you are sitting at home in your living room around your table playing the board game, you can decide with your playmates that you will use some dictionary you have at home. Privately you can decide what you want. But for a program like Scrabble3D this is not possible. We have to decide which dictionary will be used for games played with Scrabble3D, because we have to use a common word list in Scrabble3D. Therefore we decided to adopt the rules from the Official Greek Scrabble Federation. That means that our greek.dic is based on the two dictionaries used in official Greek tournaments: Triantafyllides and Babiniotis, i.e. 1. «Λεξικό της Κοινής Νεοελληνικής» Ιδρύματος Μ. Τριανταφυλλίδη, and 2. «Λεξικό της Νέας Ελληνικής Γλώσσας» Γ. Μπαμπινιώτη, 1998, επανέκδοση 2005.


2. Then there is another question. What does this mean: Foreign, indeclinable words are not allowed? As I don't speak Greek, I cannot say anything about the question if foreign words are indeclinable in Greek or not. I think in this case I suggest you to ask that question to the National Greek Scrabble Association - Πανελλήνια Ένωση Σκραμπλ, http://www.greekscrabble.gr/, or maybe, if you prefer, to the Scrabble Club in Θεσσαλονίκης (Thessaloniki): http://www.scrabblethes.gr/.





Zitat von Gast im Beitrag #12
You haven't the right to get a letter that you have placed on the table, unless your opponents have made an objection to the word and has been accepted.

This feature is optional. You can disable it in the settings, if you don't like to take back any tiles from the board.


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Athanasia ( Guest )
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Thu Nov 01, 2012 3:55 pm
#14 RE: Unknown words in greek dictionary Quote · reply

I only made the whole translation from the text..I totally agree with you as far as the Dictionary is concerned.It's reasonable and acceptable to make a dictionary according to the two dictionaries used in official Greek tournaments.My only objection is about foreign words.It's explicitly refered that on board game they are not allowed. None of the foreign words such as "Boom" has cases in greek grammar.I have just sent e-mails to both of the sites you suggested I'm waiting for their answers.

"This feature is optional. You can disable it in the settings, if you don't like to take back any tiles from the board."
I just translated the text,I have noticed that there is option about that.


Bussinchen Offline




Posts: 17

Thu Nov 01, 2012 4:06 pm
#15 RE: Unknown words in greek dictionary Quote · reply

Yes, thank you, Athanasia. It will be interesting to read what the National Greek Scrabble Federation Πανελλήνια Ένωση Σκραμπλ and the Scrabble Club in Thessaloniki will answer.


PS:
Dear Athanasia, wouldn't you like to become a registered member of our Scrabble3D forum instead of writing only as a guest?

Why you should register:
As a registered member of the forum you have plenty of advantages: You have full access to the forums and benefit from additional features like signatures, private messages, post subscriptions etc.

See faq.php#faq


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