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 Catalan
jmontane Offline




Posts: 63

Fri Aug 26, 2011 5:32 pm
Catalan Scrabble3D Quote · reply

Hi,

two years ago I help to add Catalan Scrabble on xwords, quakle, Eliot and Wabble. I've discovered Scrabble3D and I think I can help now to add Catalan tiles distribution and word list. Can you help me?

Some things about Catalan Scrabble:

Diacritical accents are ignored, but there is an special tile for Ç.
Original Mattel Q tile is always played as QU, and all programs I've help to adapt uses QU tile.
There are three multichar tiles: NY, L·L and QU.
There aren't tiles for K, W or Y letter.
Then, the full Catalan tiles set is: A,B,C,Ç,D,E,F,G,H,I,J,L,L·L,M,N,NY,O,P,QU,R,S,T,U,V,X,Z.

About word list, there isn't open and official wordlist. Mine is an enough good word list, and It's used in several programs. You can download from http://montane.cat/danosc/DANOSC.txt

There is a Catalan special Scrabble rule, not implemented at Scrabble3D. At end of turn, when the player has ben played or swapped tiles, if the new rack have only vowels or only consonants, without blanks, then the player is allowed, optionally, to swap all tiles of rack.

Regards,

Joan Montané


Bussinchen Offline




Posts: 10

Fri Aug 26, 2011 6:32 pm
#2 RE: Catalan Scrabble3D Quote · reply

Dear Joan,

Thank you so much for joining us, and welcome to our Scrabble3D forum!

Just now I cannot answer you more in details, but I will do it tonight!!!

It's really great to have you among us! You want to help us to develop more languages for Scrabble3D - Catalan: that's amazing!!!

Just now, I am still in my office, but later, when I will be at home again, I will create a special Catalan section for you here in our international forum. Unfortunately we don't speak Catalan, so we must continue talking in English.

By the way: Do you know the Italian rule of Cambio secco? We have it in our Scrabble3D. Have you already tried to play with Cambio secco? The CS ist not exactly like the "Catalan Cambio Secco", but nearly!

I'm very pleased to help you!
Let's talk about the letter set later on!

CU later on!
Yours sincerely,
Bussinchen


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Bussinchen Offline




Posts: 10

Fri Aug 26, 2011 9:25 pm
#3 RE: Catalan Scrabble3D Quote · reply

Now I have created a new Catalan forum and I am very pleased to continue discussing here with you, dear Joan, and with all Catalan Scrabble fans!


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Scotty Offline

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Posts: 3.606

Fri Aug 26, 2011 10:58 pm
#4 RE: Catalan support Quote · reply

Welcome jmontane!

Scrabble3D can handle all unicode characters as well as di- and multigraphs. Standard unicode chars can be easily inserted into the letter set - either click on an item and change or add. A digraph is assigned to a non-used char at word list section [Replace]. E.g. 1=LL. This char has to be added to letter set. [1]

A word list needs only some header info, like [General] Author=jmontane. Have a look at [2]. Additionally, you can assign a meaning, translation or whatever to each word. This info will be shown in a tooltip for placed words on mouseover.

Some special rules are already implemented. On the other hand, I don't like to clutter settings with too much functions and details. So I hope you are satisfied with the Cambio Secco that Bussinchen mentioned.

Last but not least, I would greatly appreciate to hard code Catalan. Only localization is missing. I'm sure Bussinchen will assist if you are willing to translate the menus. However, work is ongoing so it wouldn't be a one time job ;-).

Unfortunately, many help pages are outdated and several are only available in German.

[1] http://scrabble.game-server.cc/wiki/inde...uration:Letters
[2] http://scrabble.game-server.cc/wiki/inde...eate_Dictionary.
[3] http://scrabble.game-server.cc/wiki/inde...enu_Language/de


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Bussinchen Offline




Posts: 10

Fri Aug 26, 2011 11:10 pm
#5 RE: Catalan support Quote · reply

Of course! If I can help, I'll do it! Because I'm so happy that Scrabble3D will be more and more beautiful and more and more international!

We have already decided to have a Skype meeting about Catalan on Sunday!

I will explain everything to you, dear jmontane! So it will be easier for you to understand how our digraph system works! ;-)

CU !!!


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Bussinchen Offline




Posts: 10

Sat Aug 27, 2011 1:34 am
#6 RE: Catalan Scrabble3D - (Italian) Cambio Secco instead for (Catalan) Cambio Secco? Quote · reply

Zitat von jmontane
There is a Catalan special Scrabble rule, not implemented at Scrabble3D. At end of turn, when the player has ben played or swapped tiles, if the new rack have only vowels or only consonants, without blanks, then the player is allowed, optionally, to swap all tiles of rack.



Hello Joan!

As I have understood, your Catalan Cambio Secco is the first version of the Italian Cambio Secco after having been invented. As a Catalan maybe you can understand Italian texts, too. Look here what diodeldragene, the former President of the Italian Scrabble Federation (FIGS) wrote in our forum about the history of the Cambio Secco:

Zitat von Diodeldragone in the Italian forum Regolamento italiano
Posso spiegarvi da cosa si origina la regola del cambio secco : Alla fine degli anni 90 alcuni giocatori hanno cominciato ad usare un gentlemen agreement con il quale si usava far cambiare tutte le tessere nel caso in cui fossero state estratte tutte consonanti o tutte vocali,in questo caso si voleva dare una occasione a chi era stato sfortunato nella pesca,quindi il giocatore girava il proprio leggio (tilerack) e mostrava all'avversario le 7 consonanti o 7 vocali,a quel punto l'avversario accordava il cambio totale delle tessere. Come già detto questa regola non era scritta,ma ormai era entrata nell'uso comune tanto da essere usata persino sui siti di gioco online.Il problema era che sui siti online non era possibile verificare se davvero il giocatore aveva in dotazione tutte consonanti o tutte vocali e ci sono stati non pochi casi in cui qualcuno barava,inoltre anche nel gioco dal vivo molti sospettavano che alcuni giocatori che avevano in dotazione una sola vocale o una sola consonante di proposito la giocassero con l'intenzione di avere al turno successivo la possibilità di un cambio gratuito. Veniva così completamente stravolta una regola di fairplay pertanto bisognava creare qualcosa di più equo e inattaccabile dal punto di vista regolamentare.
Con la nascita della FIGS una commissione ha studiato attentamente la regola del cambio secco utilizzandolo prima solo in tornei locali e successivamente creando una regola ufficiale, dopo due anni di utilizzo posso affermare che il cambio secco funziona molto bene, rende le partite più tattiche e riduce, almeno in parte, anche il fattore fortuna,non si è verificato nessun caso di abuso della regola che a questo punto pare non avere punti deboli.
Il cambio secco è concesso ad entrambi i contendenti una sola volta ed è solo per questo che si può paragonare all'arrocco negli scacchi,in realtà è uno strumento che spinge a giocare in maniera più accorta senza confidare troppo nella fortuna,qualsiasi giocatore infatti ci pensa bene prima di aprire un x9 (possibilità di coprire due rossi sulle linee esterne) sapendo che l'avversario (se ha conservato il cambio secco) ha più chance di far male.


As you can see the Italian FIGS had changed the rule concerning only vowels or only consonants on the rack, so that you can change all your letters at once even if you have vowels and consonants mixed on your rack. As far as I know, this rule exists only in Italian Scrabble, but now we see that even Catalans have their own Cambio Secco. I think you can use the Italian Cambio Secco in Catalan games, too, and if you want to use it only if you have only vowels or consonants on the rack, you can make a gentlement agreement with the other players in your group when playing Scrabble3D, deciding that the Cambio Secco should be used only if the player has only vowels or consonants.

I can tell you that even when we are playing Scrabble3D in German language, where the Cambio Secco does not exist officially, we really do like to use it, because the Cambio Secco is a very good rule indeed. I think it should be an official rule in any language!

So I recommend: Try the Italian Cambio Secco in Catalunya, too!!! It is the fourth button in the toolbar.

Best regards,
Bussinchen


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Bussinchen Offline




Posts: 10

Sat Aug 27, 2011 1:52 am
#7 RE: Catalan Scrabble3D Quote · reply

Maybe you are interested in looking at the Comparison of Official International Scrabble rules:

Regole ufficiali internazionali (in Italian)
Internationale Spielregeln im Vergleich (in German)

All theses rules are implemented in Scrabble3D.


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Bussinchen Offline




Posts: 10

Sat Aug 27, 2011 1:58 am
#8 RE: Catalan Scrabble3D - REGLAMENT GENERAL Quote · reply


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Bussinchen Offline




Posts: 10

Sun Aug 28, 2011 4:12 am
#9 RE: Catalan Scrabble3D - REGLAMENT GENERAL Quote · reply

Dear Joan,

after having read the official FISC rules for Catalan Scrabble (http://www.fiscrabble.cat/wp-content/upl...ment-de-joc.pdf), I have updated my table showing international rules that are implemented in Scrabble3D. Now you can find also Catalan rules in that table. Look here:
Internationale Spielregeln im Vergleich (only in German).

Now Scotty can implement even FISC rules as default settings for Catalan in Scrabble3D. I think these default settings will be integrated in the assistent which you can open whenever you want by clicking on the menu Information.

But now I have two questions about the Catalan Cambio Secco:

• How many times are you allowed to use the Catalan Cambio Secco? Regarding the Italian Cambio Secco you can only use it once in a game.

• How many tiles must be left in the bag, so that you can use the Catalan Cambio Secco? Regarding the Italian Cambio Secco you can use it until there is only one letter left in the bag.


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jmontane Offline




Posts: 63

Sun Aug 28, 2011 8:52 am
#10 RE: Catalan Scrabble3D - REGLAMENT GENERAL Quote · reply

Zitat
• How many times are you allowed to use the Catalan Cambio Secco? Regarding the Italian Cambio Secco you can only use it once in a game.



Any times, there is no limitation. Indeed, this exchange is made at end of turn, and if after exchange, there is, again, all vowels and all consonats, the player can change again all the tiles of rack.

Zitat
• How many tiles must be left in the bag, so that you can use the Catalan Cambio Secco? Regarding the Italian Cambio Secco you can use it until there is only one letter left in the bag.



It's the same here. Until there is 1 tile in the bag. But the other normal change ( when you loose turn) is restricted at 7 tiles in the bag.


Bussinchen Offline




Posts: 10

Sun Aug 28, 2011 1:43 pm
#11 RE: Catalan Scrabble3D - REGLAMENT GENERAL: Catalan Cambio Secco Quote · reply

Zitat von jmontane
1. • How many times are you allowed to use the Catalan Cambio Secco? Regarding the Italian Cambio Secco you can only use it once in a game.
Any times, there is no limitation. Indeed, this exchange is made at end of turn, and if after exchange, there is, again, all vowels and all consonats, the player can change again all the tiles of rack.

2. • How many tiles must be left in the bag, so that you can use the Catalan Cambio Secco? Regarding the Italian Cambio Secco you can use it until there is only one letter left in the bag.
It's the same here. Until there is 1 tile in the bag. But the other normal change ( when you loose turn) is restricted at 7 tiles in the bag.



ad 1:

OK. Today this possibility does not exist in Scrabble3D. Last night I have read in the FISC rules http://www.fiscrabble.cat/wp-content/upl...ment-de-joc.pdf page 3-4, chapter 3:

Quan un jugador té set fitxes al faristol que són tot vocals o tot consonants (sense cap escarràs), està autoritzat (no obligat) a canviar totes les lletres fins que comenci el torn del jugador contrari. Per fer‐ho haurà de mostrar el faristol al seu oponent, retornar totes les peces al sac i agafar‐ne un altre cop set, abans de prémer el rellotge. En aquest cas, el jugador que canvia les lletres no perdrà el torn. Si després de canviar‐les continua tenint tot vocals o tot consonants, es demanarà a un dels àrbitres que comprovi les peces restants. Segons les que quedin, es procedirà de la manera següent:
a) En cas d’haver‐hi una sola vocal o consonant (segons s’escaigui) o un sol escarràs, es posarà aquesta peça al faristol del jugador. Les restants es posaran al sac i s’extrauran de nou les sis que li manquin.
b) Si hi ha dues vocals o consonants, o més, es posaran totes les peces del faristol al sac i el jugador repetirà l’operació d’extracció fins que aconsegueixi tenir un faristol amb almenys una vocal o una consonant.
c) Si no queda cap peça de les necessàries, el jugador es quedarà les peces que té al faristol i continuarà el joc.


My German translation (--> für Scotty zur freundlichen Kenntnisnahme):

Wenn ein Spieler sieben Spielsteine auf dem Bänkchen hat, die ausschließlich Vokale oder ausschließlich Konsonanten sind (ohne Joker), hat er die Möglichkeit (er muss aber nicht), sämtliche Buchstaben auszutauschen, bevor der Gegner am Zug ist. Um dies zu tun, muss er seinem Gegner das Bänkchen zeigen, alle Spielsteine zurück ins Säckchen legen, und einen neuen Satz Buchstaben aus dem Säckchen ziehen, bevor er auf die Uhr drückt. In diesem Fall verliert der Spieler, der die Buchstaben tauscht, nicht seinen Zug. Wenn er nach dem Buchstabentausch immer noch lauter Vokale oder lauter Konsonanten hat, wird der Schiedsrichter gebeten, die Restbuchstaben zu überprüfen. Je nachdem, welche Restbuchstaben noch vorhanden sind, wird nun folgendermaßen vorgegangen:
a) Falls nur noch ein einziger Vokal oder Konsonant (gegebenenfalls) oder nur noch ein Joker übrig ist, wird der entsprechende [benötigte] Spielstein auf das Bänkchen des Spielers gesetzt. Die übrigen Spielsteine werden zurück ins Säckchen gelegt und es werden erneut sechs Buchstaben gezogen, die dem Spieler noch fehlen.
b) Wenn noch zwei Vokale oder Konsonanten oder mehr übrig sind, werden sämtliche Spielsteine, die sich auf dem Bänkchen [des Spielers] befinden, ins Säckchen gelegt, und der Spieler wiederholt den Vorgang des Buchstabentauschs so lange, bis sich auf seinem Bänkchen wenigstens ein Vokal oder ein Konsonant befindet.
c) Wenn kein Spielstein, der eigentlich benötigt wird, mehr vorhanden ist, behält der Spieler die Steine, die er auf seinem Bänkchen hat, und spielt damit weiter.


-----------------------------------------

ad 2:

Yes. No problem. It's the same as in other international rules. I read in the FISC rules http://www.fiscrabble.cat/wp-content/upl...ment-de-joc.pdf page 4, chapter 3:

Un jugador pot utilitzar el seu torn per canviar tantes lletres com vulgui. En aquest cas, però, no podrà col∙locar cap fitxa al tauler i el torn passarà al jugador que el segueix. El canvi voluntari de fitxes es pot fer si resten almenys set fitxes al sac.

My German translation (--> für Scotty zur freundlichen Kenntnisnahme):

Ein Spieler kann seinen Zug dazu benutzen, so viele Buchstaben auszutauschen, wie er möchte. In diesem Fall darf er jedoch keinen Spielstein aufs Spielbrett legen, und der Zug wird an den nachfolgenden Spieler weitergegeben. Der fakultative Buchstabentausch kann erfolgen, solange noch mindestens sieben Spielsteine im Säckchen sind.





---------------------

PS:

I Catalan language!

/Bussinchen



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Scotty Offline

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Posts: 3.606

Sun Aug 28, 2011 4:02 pm
#12 RE: Catalan Scrabble3D - REGLAMENT GENERAL: Catalan Cambio Secco Quote · reply

Zitat von Bussinchen
... (--> für Scotty zur freundlichen Kenntnisnahme):

Thanks for your translation, but I do understand English a little bit.
As far as I see, it's a normal exchange.


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Bussinchen Offline




Posts: 10

Sun Aug 28, 2011 4:11 pm
#13 RE: Catalan Scrabble3D - REGLAMENT GENERAL: Catalan Cambio Secco Quote · reply

@Scotty:

But the source text was in Catalan. And it would have been more difficult to me to translate in English, and anyway Jaon already knows what is written in the Catalan rules.

Zitat von Scotty
Thanks for your translation, but I do understand English a little bit.
As far as I see, it's a normal exchange.



Scotty!!! The normal exchange: yes!
But: the "Catalan Cambio Secco": no!!!




It's because of the very special Catalan Cambio Secco I have translated everything for you, because I think that just you, as the developer of Scrabble3D, should know exactly how this Catalan rule works.

Excuse me for not having translated the Catalan text into English.


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Scotty Offline

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Posts: 3.606

Sun Aug 28, 2011 4:33 pm
#14 RE: Catalan Scrabble3D - REGLAMENT GENERAL: Catalan Cambio Secco Quote · reply

In principle, the idea is good to exchange letters until a mixed distribution. On the other hand fortune is part of the game. And Scrabble3D don't "knows" what a vowel or consonant is which results in the need of much more configuration. I would agree to a single checkbox option but reject bloating for an unusual function.
BTW: Don't call it Catalan CS because CS is a unique function.


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Bussinchen Offline




Posts: 10

Sun Aug 28, 2011 5:18 pm
#15 RE: Catalan Scrabble3D - REGLAMENT GENERAL: Catalan Cambio Secco Quote · reply

Zitat von Scotty
Don't call it Catalan CS because CS is a unique function.


Suggest a better name then!

I consider the term of "Catalan CS" only as a helpful designation (also eine Art Hilfsbezeichnung) I use internally here in our discussion with Joan, not officially. I have no idea how to call it, and, when talking about that Catalan rule, I don't want to write long sentences to describe that very special type of letter exchange.

Please cf. what Diodeldragone wrote before: Catalan Scrabble3D and, with my German translation, Regolamento italiano

IMHO the helpful designation "Catalan CS" is not that wrong...


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