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 Catalan
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Bussinchen Offline




Posts: 10

Sat Aug 27, 2011 2:30 am
#1 Digraph questions in Catalan Scrabble Quote · reply

Please tell us: Why is there a little point between L and L on the LL digraph tile? --> L·L?

http://ca.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scrabble

http://ca.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fitxer:Cata...abble_tiles.jpg


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Attached pictures:
600px-Catalan_Scrabble_tiles.jpg  

Bussinchen Offline




Posts: 10

Sat Aug 27, 2011 4:06 am
#2 RE: Catalan Scrabble3D - Digraph L·L Quote · reply

Ah I understand! http://ca.wikipedia.org/wiki/L%C2%B7l

But how can we know in Scrabble if the number 1 in the catala.dic has to be replaced by LL or by L·L ?

Or is there only L·L in Catalan Scrabble, but not LL ?


(cf. http://scrabble.game-server.cc/wiki/inde...e_Dictionary/fr )


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jmontane Offline




Posts: 63

Sat Aug 27, 2011 9:23 am
#3 RE: Catalan Scrabble3D - Digraph L·L Quote · reply

These tiles (Wikipedia Catalan image) are my tiles!!!! :DDDDD

There is no problem with LL or L·L, LL must be played with two L, and L·L must be played with own L·L tile, or a blank. So no confussion. For instant, there are the words CELLA and CEL·LA, the first one must be played with 5 tiles, the second one with 4 tiles.

About Italian Cambio secco, I'm surprised, Catalan rules is usually called "senyors" (--> gentlemen) and is exactly as Italian rule before Cambio secco. We well try it, :)
Catalan rule is used in all tournaments (we are about 80 players in 6 clubs) but there are players against this rule. Maybe Cambio secco would be a good rule for everybody, :)

Regards,
Joan Montané


Bussinchen Offline




Posts: 10

Sat Aug 27, 2011 12:51 pm
#4 RE: Catalan Scrabble3D - Digraph L·L Quote · reply

Wow!

Maybe it's you, Joan Montané, who has created that Catalan letter set with L·L?
I understand that you are working hard to develop Catalan Scrabble in Spain and to give Scrabble in Catalan a more official status! Phantastic! Tell me: Are you a member of the Junta directiva of the Federació Internacional de Scrabble en Català (FISC) ?

Anyway: I feel that I have to study the whole website of the Catalan FISC now: http://www.fiscrabble.cat/.
Since I understand French, Italian, Spanish and Latin, I have no problems to understand written texts when reading in Catalan, even if I cannot talk a word actively in Catalan...

Yes, we have to discuss the LL, L·L and L + L question. I want to do it on Skype with you, dear Joan.

Just now all LL combinations in your word list (without exception) are replaced by L·L - but after what you have written about CELLA and CEL·LA I know that this is not correct. Last night I had replaced all LL in your word list by using the Search and Replace all function in the editor Notpad++. Since in Spanish (Castellano) all LL are digraphs without any exception, this method worked fine in Castellano. But now I see that it is different in Catalan, where you have L + L besides L·L. I'm afraid now that you have to controll manually the whole list (561583 words), search all the words containing LL (48809 hits), check each one of these 48809 LL-words and replace only those LL-combinations by number 1 which have to be L·L, leaving as normal unchanged LL combination the other ones where LL has to be played with two different single-L-tiles. So I understand that this work cannot be done by a machine, i.e. a computer program, but has to be done manually by a human whose mother tongue is just Catalan checking through the whole list word by word.

Example:
CELLA must be represented as CELLA in the catala.dic file
CEL·LA must be represented as CE1A in the catala.dic file

We can discuss that Catalan L·L and L + L question more on Skype tomorrow.
And maybe we have to discuss the Catalan Q / QU question, too. But let me read the FISC homepage first.


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jmontane Offline




Posts: 63

Sat Aug 27, 2011 1:36 pm
#5 RE: Catalan Scrabble3D - Digraph L·L Quote · reply

The Catalan Scrabble set was creat by the Linguistic Dr. Lluís de Yzaguirre, for the official Mattel Catalan Scrabble. He also is the author of the "Diccionari Oficial de l'Scrabble en Català" (DOSC) the dictionary used by Catalan players, but Catalna dictionary is a loooong story, and may be there will be changes in near future.

I was member of FISC council since its foundation, 2008, up to past july, when I rejected to renew my chair.

No problem about LL and L·L in any word list. In Catalan all LL combinantions must be played with 2 tiles, and L·L is written with 3 chars at my word list (an in any other Catalan text, it can be typed L·L, the good and mainly used encoding, or ĿL, L-L o L.L alternative bad encodings). So, there is no problem about LL or L·L.

About Q/QU, it's a question about aesthetic. Originally, Mattle makes Q tile, so, for example the word QUE should be played with 3 tiles Q+U+E, but a custom rule (use Q tile as QU) has been adopted by all the players and clubs, so the word QUE is played all ways with only 2 tiles Q+E=QE. In Eliot, Xwords, Wabble and Quacle I've made the choose to use QU tile, so QUE word is played by 2 tiles QU+E. More info, during many years, a daily Scrabble problem was published at newspaper "Avui", and QU tiles was used there, just like Eliot, Xwords or Wabble.

Optionally, I can use Q tile and replace all QU occurences of the wordlist by Q, but it's not according to other programs and newspaper published problems.

See you later, Joan Montané


Bussinchen Offline




Posts: 10

Sat Aug 27, 2011 2:36 pm
#6 RE: Catalan Scrabble3D - Digraph L·L Quote · reply

Zitat von jmontane
No problem about LL and L·L in any word list. In Catalan all LL combinantions must be played with 2 tiles, and L·L is written with 3 chars at my word list (an in any other Catalan text, it can be typed L·L, the good and mainly used encoding, or ĿL, L-L o L.L alternative bad encodings). So, there is no problem about LL or L·L.


Aaaaah! Very good, now I have used the search function in Notepad++ typing L·L in the search field. And indeed, I see now that there are 7065 hits, i.e. 7065 words containing L·L, the first one being ACARAMEL·LA. OK, that's great and it will avoid the necessity to controll manually each LL-word in the list. Superb! You have already done a great job! Excellent!
So now I'll remake your list in order to activate Scrabble3D's digraph function only for words with L·L, NY and QU, but not for words with LL, and then I'll play some new demo games with that modified list. So later on I will post more screenshots of Catalan demo games here. ;-)

Zitat von jmontane
About Q/QU, it\'s a question about aesthetic. Originally, Mattle makes Q tile, so, for example the word QUE should be played with 3 tiles Q+U+E, but a custom rule (use Q tile as QU) has been adopted by all the players and clubs, so the word QUE is played all ways with only 2 tiles Q+E=QE. In Eliot, Xwords, Wabble and Quacle I\'ve made the choose to use QU tile, so QUE word is played by 2 tiles QU+E. More info, during many years, a daily Scrabble problem was published at newspaper "Avui", and QU tiles was used there, just like Eliot, Xwords or Wabble.

Optionally, I can use Q tile and replace all QU occurences of the wordlist by Q, but it\'s not according to other programs and newspaper published problems.


What do you prefer? Q or QU as a digraph? If you ask me, in my humble opinion I would by far prefer having the digraph QU on one tile, instead of writing QUE as QE which would not be correct writing in normal texts. So I would recommend the digraph QU.

Zitat von jmontane
The Catalan Scrabble set was creat by the Linguistic Dr. Lluís de Yzaguirre, for the official Mattel Catalan Scrabble. He also is the author of the "Diccionari Oficial de l\'Scrabble en Català" (DOSC) the dictionary used by Catalan players, but Catalan dictionary is a loooong story, and may be there will be changes in near future.


OK! Your list, is it based on that DOSC? Or is it based on the Open Office Spellchecker list? It would be great, if our Scrabble3D catala.dic could take into consideration the official DOSC list as a standard category.

Zitat von jmontane
I was member of FISC council since its foundation, 2008, up to past july, when I rejected to renew my chair.


Ok, I see! So you are in some way like Diodeldragone (Diego de Landro) from Napoli, Italy, who was one of those persons who founded Italian FIGS, but who has no longer been a member of the FIGS Council since January 1st, 2011.
I'm really proud to have you here among us in our Scrabble3D forum, because you are such a competent person regarding different aspects of official Catalan Scrabble.

Cheers,
Bussinchen


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Bussinchen Offline




Posts: 10

Sat Aug 27, 2011 3:00 pm
#7 RE: Catalan Scrabble3D - Digraph NY Quote · reply

Hello Joan!

Are you sure that the letter combination NY always is a digraph in Catalan?
Are there NY combinations in Catalan, where NY should be played as N + Y with two tiles, one with N and one more with Y?

Best regards,
Bussinchen


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jmontane Offline




Posts: 63

Sat Aug 27, 2011 5:18 pm
#8 RE: Catalan Scrabble3D - Digraph NY Quote · reply

Zitat
Are you sure that the letter combination NY always is a digraph in Catalan?
Are there NY combinations in Catalan, where NY should be played as N + Y with two tiles, one with N and one more with Y?



Yes, I'm sure. Y cann't be played without N front it. In fact, only two words with Y are in catalan diciontaries YPERITA and its plural YPERITAS, anb both are rejected to play scrabble, because thereisn't Y tile, anb blanck cann't be used as Y

Regards


Bussinchen Offline




Posts: 10

Sat Aug 27, 2011 6:52 pm
#9 Catalan Scrabble3D - Digraph QU Quote · reply

After having read the German Wikipedia article about the Catalan language, I think using a Scrabble digraph for QU in words like qüestió or seqüència with a trema on the U is not the best solution in a linguistic point of view... ;-)


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jmontane Offline




Posts: 63

Sat Aug 27, 2011 7:46 pm
#10 RE: Catalan Scrabble3D - Digraph QU Quote · reply

Zitat
After having read the German Wikipedia article about the Catalan language, I think using a Scrabble digraph for QU in words like qüestió or seqüència with a trema on the U is not the best solution in a linguistic point of view... ;-)



Well, all diacritical marks are ignored in scrabble, only Ç is played. With QU tile, these words look QUESTIO (6 tiles) and SEQUENCIA (8 tiles), without QU, using Q tiles instead, these words looks QESTIO (6 tiles) and SEQENCIA (8 tiles).
So, I think the best aproach, by far, is to use the QU tile, it's used in other programs and newspapers.


Bussinchen Offline




Posts: 10

Sat Aug 27, 2011 9:03 pm
#11 RE: Catalan Scrabble3D - Digraph QU Quote · reply

Yes, of course, but in my humble opinion QUESTIO should be written with 7 tiles and SEQUENCIA with 9 tiles (Q tile + U tile), because of the pronunciation [ku-es-tio] and [se-gu-en-sia], where the U with trema is pronounced as a separate phoneme, not like in QUE, which is pronounced like [ke], where QU only means that the word must not be pronounced [se] or [tshe] or something like this... (cf. French ce vs. que: Ce [s] matin... / je sais que [k]...)

If I could decide something for Catalan Scrabble, I would decide to implement a digraph for LL, too, and I would write words like qüestió and seqüència with Q + U.

The problem for the Q is that you are not using both digraph QU tiles and single Q tiles in Catalan Scrabble, but either QU or Q...


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Bussinchen Offline




Posts: 10

Sun Aug 28, 2011 1:21 am
#12 Digraphs and jokers (official FISC rules) Quote · reply

Zitat von http://www.fiscrabble.cat/wp-content/upl...ment-de-joc.pdf page 3
La fitxa de la lletra cu (Q) s’entén que sempre porta incorporada la lletra U.
Els dígrafs L∙L i NY només poden ser jugats utilitzant la peça corresponent o un escarràs. Per
tant, no s’admetrà l’ús de dues eles per formar una ela geminada, ni l’ús d’una ena i un
escarràs (no existeix la peça Y) per formar el dígraf NY, ja que l'escarràs pot representar només
les fitxes existents en el joc de Scrabble en català.



My German translation:
Der Spielstein mit dem Buchstaben Q ist so aufzufassen, dass er immer gleich den Buchstaben U mit enthält*).
Die Digraphen L∙L und NY dürfen nie gelegt werden, indem man den entsprechenden Spielstein oder einen Joker verwendet. Aus diesem Grund ist es nicht zulässig, dass man zwei L verwendet, um ein L geminada (L∙L) zu legen, und man darf auch kein N zusammen mit einem Joker verwenden (es gibt keinen Spielstein mit einem Y), um den Digraphen NY zu legen, da der Joker [[EDIT] da zunächst von mir falsch übersetzt: nie] nur für die im katalanischen Scrabble-Spiel existierenden Spielsteine eingesetzt werden darf.


*) Kommentar: Daher gilt bei den meisten katalanischen Scrabble-Clubs die Regelung, dass statt des einzelnen Q's mit der Bedeutung QU gleich QU als Digraph auf einem Stein dargestellt wird.


Dear Joan,

I have a question:
Shouldn't the sentence
ja que l'escarràs pot representar només les fitxes existents en el joc de Scrabble en català be
ja que l'escarràs pot representar només les fitxes no existents/inexistents en el joc de Scrabble en català or
ja que l'escarràs només pot representar les fitxes no existents/inexistents en el joc de Scrabble en català ?!

Isn't that a mistake?


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Bussinchen Offline




Posts: 10

Sun Aug 28, 2011 1:41 am
#13 Für Scotty: L geminada (L∙L) Quote · reply

@Scotty:

Wenn du das katalanische Buchstabenset als Standardbuchstabenset im Pulldownmenü einfügst und deswegen den katalanischen Digraphen L geminada (L∙L) im Quellcode verankerst, brauchst du wahrscheinlich die richtige Unicode-Bezeichnung für den Mittelpunkt. Guck mal hier:

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C4%BF


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jmontane Offline




Posts: 63

Sun Aug 28, 2011 8:48 am
#14 RE: Digraphs and jokers (official FISC rules) Quote · reply

Zitat
I have a question:
Shouldn't the sentence
ja que l'escarràs pot representar només les fitxes existents en el joc de Scrabble en català be
ja que l'escarràs pot representar només les fitxes no existents/inexistents en el joc de Scrabble en català or
ja que l'escarràs només pot representar les fitxes no existents/inexistents en el joc de Scrabble en català ?!

Isn't that a mistake?



No, it's correct. This sentences explains that blancks can only be played as another tile in the tile distribution, so K, W, Y and Q (not followed by U) can not be played with blanck, because these letter are not found at tiles distribution.


Bussinchen Offline




Posts: 10

Sun Aug 28, 2011 12:24 pm
#15 RE: Digraphs and jokers (official FISC rules) Quote · reply

Zitat von jmontane
No, it's correct. This sentence explains that blancks can only be played as another tile in the tile distribution, so K, W, Y and Q (not followed by U) can not be played with blanck, because these letter are not found at tiles distribution.


Yes, that's exactly what I already had understood. Nevertheless for me (not talking catalan, but several other Latin languages) this sentence seems to be wrongly expressed in the FISC rules pdf-text.

només = never, nunca, jamais - isn't it?
ja que = since/as, ya que, puisque - isn't it?


Catalan: ja que l'escarràs pot representar només les fitxes existents en el joc de Scrabble en català
English: since the joker can never represent the tiles that exist in Catalan Scrabble game
Spanish: ya que el comodín nunca puede representar las fichas que existen en el juego de Scrabble en catalán
French: puisque le joker ne peut jamais représenter les pions qui existent dans le jeu de Scrabble catalan


In my humble opinion of a non Catalan speaking person it should be like this:


Catalan: ja que l'escarràs pot representar només les fitxes no existents en el joc de Scrabble en català
English: since the joker can never represent the tiles that don't exist in Catalan Scrabble game
Spanish: ya que el comodín nunca puede representar las fichas que no existen en el juego de Scrabble en catalán
French: puisque le joker ne peut jamais représenter les pions qui n'existent pas dans le jeu de Scrabble catalan



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