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 Scottish Gaelic - Gàidhlig
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akerbeltzalba Offline




Posts: 142

Mon Aug 29, 2011 1:43 am
*.lang file: Syntax formatting Quote · reply

Does the game understand syntax formatting? I've got "%s has the letters %s left" but I'd have to tie myself in a linguistic knot to make Gaelic fit that (possession obligatorily places the possessed first i.e. "%s is left at %s".

Can I put this as "Tha na litrichean %1$s air fhàgail aig %2$s"?


Bussinchen Online




Posts: 2

Mon Aug 29, 2011 2:00 am
#2 RE: Syntax formatting Quote · reply

Only Scotty can answer.

I myself had a similar problem in french.lang, but tried to find other formulations, which was really really hard.
But of course, what you suggest would be an improvement for all future L10n:s.


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Scotty Offline

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Mon Aug 29, 2011 10:22 am
#3 RE: *.lang file: Syntax formatting Quote · reply

Zitat von akerbeltzalba
Does the game understand syntax formatting?

Very limited. "%s" means a term is replaced dynamically by a string, e.g. a player name (%d is a number). If a term has two "%s" both need to be in the translation. The position doesn't matter but sequence cannot be changed. It's possible to write "%s %s <text>" or "%s<text>%s" or "<text>%s%s" but not "<text>" or "%s<text>" only. Additionally, one can use a "/n" for line breaks. In any case it's necessary to know what happens, when and where the text is displayed.

To learn more about format() have a look at http://lazarus-ccr.sourceforge.net/docs/...ils/format.html.


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Bussinchen Online




Posts: 2

Mon Aug 29, 2011 10:50 am
#4 RE: Syntax formatting: line break Quote · reply

line break is possible only in hints (tooltips) not in captions or menu items.

and the sign for line break is not /n, as Scotty said, but \\n.

I will explain it to you more in details this evening, when I will be at home again. Be patient...


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akerbeltzalba Offline




Posts: 142

Mon Aug 29, 2011 6:31 pm
#5 RE: Syntax formatting: line break Quote · reply

Yes, I know what they do - the fact the make me cringe is another topic altogether - but it's the order of them which is problematic. On Freeciv (I know it's not the same game) this is handled the way I described (see http://freeciv.wikia.com/wiki/Localizati...er_of_arguments) but judging from your answer, that doesn't seem possible in this game. I looked at the page but I didn't understand a word, I don't speak Sumerian I'm afraid ;)


Bussinchen Online




Posts: 2

Mon Aug 29, 2011 6:57 pm
#6 RE: Syntax formatting: offtopic Quote · reply

Offtopic:

A propos po-files:

We chose Scotty's own lang-files, because we considered that they were better than po-files. I opted for Scotty's lang-system.

IMHO Scotty's langs are easier to handle than standard pos and when you change the menu language in Scrabble3D, the new language is shown immediately. With pos it would have been necessary to restart the program before the new language would have been shown. That's a minus.


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Bussinchen Online




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Mon Aug 29, 2011 7:01 pm
#7 RE: Syntax formatting: line break Quote · reply

Zitat von akerbeltzalba
the fact the make me cringe is another topic altogether



cringe ?!


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akerbeltzalba Offline




Posts: 142

Mon Aug 29, 2011 7:29 pm
#8 RE: Syntax formatting: line break Quote · reply

cringe = schmerzhaft das Gesicht verziehen

Well, I don't like suggesting changes this early in joining a project but the downside of using .lang files is that I can't use my translation memory to help me with strings I've already done in other projects or strings which are duplicates within the same file. A .po file would enable you to do that.

I suppose there may be a way of turning a .lang into a .po and back again but I haven't found anything so far. Translate Toolkit for one doesn't seem to do it.


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Posts: 2

Mon Aug 29, 2011 8:45 pm
#9 RE: Syntax formatting - lang-files vs. po-files Quote · reply

Please, don't cringe!

Scotty and me, we had already discussed the po-file question long time ago, when Scotty improved the I18n/L10n system. We didn't do that in this forum, but in private emails. For me the most important thing was the fact that one can switch immediately from one language to another without restartinng the program. For me this is a VERY VERY VERY IMPORTANT criterion indeed!

OK, in the lang-files there are keys like this:

lbNumberOfRandomLetters.Caption=Number of randoms:
lbNumberOfRandomLetters.Hint=Random letters can be added to the set
seNumberOfRandomLetters.Hint=Random letters can be added to the set

If you have Notepad++ for example, you can search for NumberOfRandomLetters only, instead of the whole key seNumberOfRandomLetters.Hint.
Then you get 3 results and you see the texts that are duplicates, and you can use Copy&Paste.

I don't think that in Scrabble3D there are so many strings you already have translated for other software, because Scrabble is rather special. And translating once more words like "player" in
rpoll_player1=1st player
rpoll_player2=2nd player
rpoll_player3=3rd player
rpoll_player4=4th player
- which you maybe already have translated for other software - should not be a big problem for you.

So what's the problem?

Please, let us keep Scotty's lang-system! I like it so much!


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Scotty Offline

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Mon Aug 29, 2011 10:08 pm
#10 RE: Syntax formatting: lang-files vs. po-files Quote · reply

The point between usual translation files and my version is not the way an update is done. I'm sure with little effort it would be possible with po-files too. IMHO the common way makes the files less readable, and you need a special translation tool. You would be glad if akerbeltzalba would argue more pro po to make me legitimate my stuff better :-)


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akerbeltzalba Offline




Posts: 142

Mon Aug 29, 2011 10:41 pm
#11 RE: Syntax formatting: lang-files vs. po-files Quote · reply

LOL I wasn't trying to open a can of worms. Firstly, with only 700 or so strings, it's not that big an issue to have some repetions. But as more languages joing the project, using a .lang file is perhaps not the easiest way forward.

The issues that immediately spring to my mind are:
- it's easier to identify changed strings using a .po
- you can implement plural formatting much more easily (there are quite a few plural strings)
- it allows for use of translation memories, which also allows fuzzy matching

But lang vs po really isn't that big an issue for me, that's not why I started this string. It's the ordering of those two %s %s which are causing me a headache. Maybe I should ask about plurals? ;)


Scotty Offline

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Mon Aug 29, 2011 10:50 pm
#12 RE: Syntax formatting: lang-files vs. po-files Quote · reply

Zitat von akerbeltzalba
Maybe I should ask about plurals? ;)

To make me having headaches? Please not! :-)
BTW: please be careful with word length. On Linux system font size is bigger so Irish gaelic doesn't fit well.


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akerbeltzalba Offline




Posts: 142

Mon Aug 29, 2011 11:10 pm
#13 RE: Syntax formatting: lang-files vs. po-files Quote · reply

I'll mention this to Kevin (he's doing the Irish side), he's got a Linux machine.

Zitat
To make me having headaches? Please not! :-)



Ok, I won't ask about plurals for a while yet. Though I bet when I do, you'll wish you had come to my "Language Awareness for ICT" workshop ;)


Bussinchen Online




Posts: 2

Mon Aug 29, 2011 11:18 pm
#14 RE: Syntax formatting - plurals --> ??? Quote · reply

Zitat von akerbeltzalba
Maybe I should ask about plurals? ;)



What du you mean?
Was ist denn hier mit Plural gemeint? und wieso Kopfweh? ich verstehe nicht, worum es geht...

Please take care of the title of your postings (die Betreffzeile)


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Bussinchen Online




Posts: 2

Tue Aug 30, 2011 12:37 am
#15  po vs. lang Quote · reply

On my old, slow laptop which I don't use any more, I have found an old email from Scotty. Unfortunately I don't find my answer or the whole correspondance. Maybe it is not on that laptop, but on my other old computer which I don't use any more either.
Actually I have not the time to search more old emails on computers that I haven't used for about 1 year.

But please read this now. (in German)




----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Heiko Tietze" <email>
To: "Martina Illing-Östlund" <email>
Sent: Thursday, August 26, 2010 12:37 PM
Subject: i18n
>
>
> Ich hadere etwas mit den po-Files und muss meine Gedanken mal
> zusammenfassen und eine zweite Meinung einholen:
>
> Pro po:
> * Standardverfahren
> * einfache Integration von Dialogen (Yes, No, Cancel)
> * Tools zum Übersetzen vorhanden
> * einfache Programmierung
> Kontra po:
> * keine Umschaltung der Sprache während der Laufzeit
> * zurzeit geht nur die Auswahl einer alternativen Sprache per Parameter
> bei Programmstart
> * aufwändige neue Erstellung der Übersetzung
>
> Pro lang:
> * Änderung der meisten Beschriftungen während der Laufzeit
> * hohe Flexibilität (ich kann alles mögliche programmieren)
> * IMHO übersichtlicherer Aufbau der Dateien
> Kontra lang:
> * unbedachte Sonderfälle (keine Ahnung, ob z.B. Chinesisch funktioniert)
> * noch keine Lösung für die Übersetzung von on-demand Texten
>
> Was tun, sprach Zeus ;-)



I remember that I opted warmly for lang-files system. I remember that we had Skype calls about it, too.

So what is so important to me? --> green. And what is so bad? --> red (in German)



> Pro po:
> * Standardverfahren
> * einfache Integration von Dialogen (Yes, No, Cancel)
> * Tools zum Übersetzen vorhanden
> * einfache Programmierung
> Kontra po:
> * keine Umschaltung der Sprache während der Laufzeit
> * zurzeit geht nur die Auswahl einer alternativen Sprache per Parameter bei Programmstart
> * aufwändige neue Erstellung der Übersetzung>

> Pro lang:
> * Änderung der meisten Beschriftungen während der Laufzeit
> * hohe Flexibilität (ich kann alles mögliche programmieren)
> * IMHO übersichtlicherer Aufbau der Dateien>
Kontra lang:
> * unbedachte Sonderfälle (keine Ahnung, ob z.B. Chinesisch funktioniert)
--> Bussinchen: Warum sollte das nicht funktionieren? Das sähe ungefähr so aus:
tbMain.Caption=朋友
tbExit.Caption=我的朋友
tbExit.Hint=我是硓
tbNewGame.Caption=你是的过人吗
und es funktioniert auch im Programm, ich hab's getestet mit einer pseudochinesischen "Übersetzung"

> * noch keine Lösung für die Übersetzung von on-demand Texten --> Bussinchen: Dieses Problem wurde kurz darauf gelöst.

> Mithin spricht nichts gegen die langs, im Gegenteil: die Vorteile überwiegen!

> Was tun, sprach Zeus ;-)


Bussinchens Antwort: po-files verwerfen und bitte lang-file-System nehmen!
Ich wollte damals keine po-files haben und will es jetzt auch nicht haben.
Außerdem ist zu bedenken, dass es Übersetzer gibt, die sich überhaupt nicht mit Computerkram auskennen. Dies ist IMHO ein starkes Argument gegen po-files.



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