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Bussinchen Offline

Beiträge: 90

16.12.2012 16:56
#31 RE: The Finnish dictionary and our suomi.dic Zitat · Antworten

Zitat von Bussinchen im Beitrag #30
As I said before:
I don't support non-letters like apostrophs, hyphens, numbers, spaces as "letters" in the letter set nor non-complete words as valid words.
This is not Scrabble any more.

Today xyz sent the scanned booklet with the rules of the physical board game to me. Kiitos, xyz!

And I already have found the paragraph which is relevant for our purpose:

Zitat von booklet with the Scrabble rules which you find in the box with the Mattel board game

Sallitut sanat

Kaikki suomen kielen yleissanakirjoissa, esim, Nykysuomen
sanakirjassa tai Suomen kielen perussanakirjassa, esiintyvät sanat
ovat sallittuja, eivät kuitenkaan erisnimet, lyhenteet, alku- tai
loppuliitteet eivätkä sanat, joissa on yhdysviiva. Suomen kielen
yleissanakirjassa olevat vierasperäiset sanat ovat sallittuja, sillä
niiden katsotaan olevan jo suomen kieltä. Pelaajien on sovittava ennen
pelin alkua, mitä sanakirjaa käytetään. Substantiiveista sallitaan
nominatiivin yksikkö- ja monikkomuoto (esim. koira, koirat), verbeistä
1. ja 4. infinitiivi (esim. tehdä, tekeminen). Muista taivutusmuodoista
voidaan sopia erikseen.

Kerran pelilaudalle laitettua kirjainlaattaa ei saa siirtää, paitsi jos
sana hylätään.

My own translation with help of Google translation and my knowledge about general and international Scrabble rules:

Valid Words

All words that are listed in a universal Finnish dictionary, for example in a current
Finnish language dictionary or any basic dictionary, are allowed, but not proper names,
abbreviations, prefixes or suffixes, nor words with a hyphen. Foreign loan words are
allowed if they are listed in the Finnish language universal dictionary, as they are
considered to be part of the Finnish language. Players must agree before starting the
game, which dictionary will be used. Nouns are allowed to be placed in nominative
singular and plural form (for example koira, koirat = dog, dogs), verbs in the
1st and the 4th infinitive/infinite form (for example to do, doing).
Remember that players may agree themselves, if inflected forms shall be considered
to be valid forms (during the game) or not.

Letter tiles once placed on the board may not be removed any more, unless the
the word is rejected.

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xyz Offline

Beiträge: 69

23.01.2013 15:56
#32 RE: The Finnish dictionary and our suomi.dic Zitat · Antworten

The idea of my solution is that whatever is deemed to be standard Finnish Scrabble, it can be chosen by ticking the appropriate checkboxes. Players who only want to play standard Scrabble, just can play the standard game which is set up as default. They don't even need to know there are more possibilities. It's the same now with unorthodox rules like multiple lettersets and random letters: standard player is not affected, but more flexible players have more freedom, and play even "illegal" games without any extra cost.

The Finnish translation of the rules is basically correct, but here are some notes or corrections:
The current basic dictionary (Kielitoimiston sanakirja) it not mentioned because it came out a year after these rules.

"Muista taivutusmuodoista voidaan sopia erikseen."
correct translation is
"Other inflection forms can be agreed on separately."

What is explicitly allowed according the Finnish rules:

1)All words in the chosen dictionary are allowed

2)Words of foreign origin in the dictionary are allowed (deemed to be Finnish because they are in the dictionary)

3)Nominative singular and plural (plural may not have any entry in the dictionary, but is allowed)

4)Verbs, 1th and 4th infinitive (4th infinitive may not have any entry in the dictionary, but is allowed)

From 1-2 follows that all letters found in the dictionary are allowed (otherwise all words in the dictionary cannot be formed).

The mentioned inflected forms are usually not found in a dictionary. I didn't find a dictionary that has 4th infinitive, even the ones for foreign students of Finnish language didn't have it. So when a player plays of these word forms, it cannot be checked form the dictionary, but must be agreed on during the play by the players.

What is explicitly not allowed according to the Finnish rules:

5)Proper nouns


7)Prefixes and suffixes

8)Words with a hyphen

The Kotus word list (suomi.dic) does not tell if an entry is an abbreviation, and there are some, very few, that are listed as abbreviations in other dictionaries. But it is not always clear if a word is an abbreviation or not, former abbreviations might be accepted as words tomorrow. They (what are deemed as abbreviations in another authoritative dictionary) could be easily added in their own category in suomi.dic - to be excluded from the default standard play, and possibly included in non-standard play.

Most of this is done (= can be excluded/included) in my solution, but the inflections cannot be checked with the dictionary, and abbreviations don't have a category yet. Verbs and nouns have inflection numbers in the original Kotus list, which could be added as an explanation to the word, but it is an awkward solution.

I have an idea to categorize verbs and nouns in the same suomi.dic - in the uncategorized part left - so theme scrabble for fun or learning just nouns/verbs could be played, but not finished doing that yet.

Finally, the rules don't have any mention about letters used or their point scores for Finnish, except in some of the rule example pictures.

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