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 Finnish
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Bussinchen Online




Posts: 11

Sun Nov 20, 2011 8:23 pm
The Finnish dictionary and our suomi.dic Quote · reply

Let's discuss the Finnish dictionary here in this thread.

We know that the suomi.dic we have just now is not very good. It contains only 93695 words. Compare that to our deutsch.dic, which contains nearly 681000 words, or with our français.dic which contains nearly 379000 words. I would be great if we could get a better finnish word list or if we could improve the one we already have.

I think J24 means that the Finnish dictionary he uses for playing Scrabble is Nykysuomen sanakirja or maybe Kielitoimiston sanakirja.

We read in Wikipedia:

Standard Finnish is prescribed by the Language Office of the Research Institute for the Languages of Finland and is the language used in official communication. The Dictionary of Contemporary Finnish (Nykysuomen sanakirja 1951–61), with 201,000 entries, was a prescriptive dictionary that defined official language. An additional volume for words of foreign origin (Nykysuomen sivistyssanakirja, 30,000 entries) was published in 1991. An updated dictionary, The New Dictionary of Modern Finnish (Kielitoimiston sanakirja) was published in an electronic form in 2004 and in print in 2006.


Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finnish_lan...Standardization

In my opinion Kielitoimiston sanakirja (The New Dictionary of Modern Finnish) should be the right one for Finnish Scrabble games.


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J24 ( Guest )
Posts:

Sun Nov 20, 2011 8:22 pm
#2 RE: The Finnish dictionary and our suomi.dic Quote · reply


J24 ( Guest )
Posts:

Sun Nov 20, 2011 8:23 pm
#3 RE: The Finnish dictionary and our suomi.dic Quote · reply

And the dictionary portal what we use, is not free one.


J24 ( Guest )
Posts:

Sun Nov 20, 2011 8:29 pm
#4 RE: The Finnish dictionary and our suomi.dic Quote · reply

I agree, Kielitoimiston sanakirja is the correct one. And that's the one we are using. Players can decide, which dictonary they use (from Finnish Scrabble rules).


Bussinchen Online




Posts: 11

Sun Nov 20, 2011 8:43 pm
#5 RE: The Finnish dictionary and our suomi.dic Quote · reply

Zitat von J24
And the dictionary portal what we use, is not free one.


Please give me the link anyway!

Zitat von J24
Players can decide, which dictionary they use (from Finnish Scrabble rules).


OK, this is the same in the booklet with the rules for Hungarian Scrabble. And in Hungary there is no National Scrabble Federation either.

But we decided to take Magyar Értelmező Kéziszótár for creating our future magyar.dic, because it seems to be the most reliable and the most official one in Hungary. So I think that Kielitoimiston sanakirja would be the best one for Finnish Scrabble, because is has been published by the Language Office of the Kotimaisten kielten tutkimuskeskus (Research Institute for the Languages of Finland, http://www.kotus.fi/?l=en&s=1).

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_New_Dic..._Modern_Finnish
http://www.kotus.fi/index.phtml?s=1240

Kielitoimiston sanakirja (2006), osat 1–3. Kotimaisten kielten tutkimuskeskuksen julkaisuja 140. Helsinki: Kotimaisten kielten tutkimuskeskus. ISBN 952-5446-20-4 (koko teos), 952-5446-21-2 (1. osa), 952-5446-22-0 (2. osa), 952-5446-23-9 (3. osa). ISSN 0355-5437.


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Bussinchen Online




Posts: 11

Sun Nov 20, 2011 8:51 pm
#6 RE: The Finnish dictionary and our suomi.dic Quote · reply

And I would like to know if inflected forms are valid forms in Finnish Scrabble and, if they are valid, which ones are valid and which ones are not.

As Finnish is an agglutinative language, this is not that easy. We have already had a discussion in our Hungarian forum Agglutination und Zulässigkeit von Wortformen im Hinblick aufs magyar.dic (discussion in German) about agglutinated forms in Hungarian.


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J24 ( Guest )
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Sun Nov 20, 2011 9:06 pm
#7 RE: The Finnish dictionary and our suomi.dic Quote · reply

There is not any free word list of Kielitoimiston sanakirja. There is only small Nykysuomen sanalista (http://kaino.kotus.fi/sanat/nykysuomi/), which is used in Scrabble - I assume.
Online portal for Kielitoimiston sanakirja: http://www.kielikone.fi/fi/tuotesivu/?intProductID=482


J24 ( Guest )
Posts:

Sun Nov 20, 2011 9:09 pm
#8 RE: The Finnish dictionary and our suomi.dic Quote · reply

Inflected forms are not valid.


Bussinchen Online




Posts: 11

Sun Nov 20, 2011 9:34 pm
#9 RE: The Finnish dictionary and our suomi.dic Quote · reply

Zitat von J24
Inflected forms are not valid.



Like in Swedish Scrabble. That's boring, if you play often in German, French, Italian, English, and so on, where inflected forms permit you to extend already placed words so that you get more points... But OK, if the rule is like this in the Finnish rule booklet, we have to follow follow this rule.

Maybe our suomi.dic is not that bad, if we consider that no inflected forms are valid. Now we have to compare the 93695 words of our suomi.dic with Kielitoimiston sanakirja, which consists of almost 100 000 entries.

J24, what do you personally think about the quality of suomi.dic of Scrabble3D, when you are playing in poll mode?


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Bussinchen Online




Posts: 11

Mon Nov 21, 2011 1:08 am
#10 RE: The Finnish dictionary and our suomi.dic Quote · reply

I have checked the old discussion (in German language) about our suomi.dic we have had with a Finnish guy, xyz, in 2008. At that time, today's Scrabble3D with its advanced functions and its server didn't exist yet. Then we played with an older, much simpler (but nevertheless very nice) version, Heiko Tietze Scrabble 3.0.xx. At that time I was member in this forum, but I was not as active as I am today, and I didn't care so much where our dic files came from. Now it's different. So now, three years later, I have checked once more the links xyz mentioned in his postings...

The thread with that discussion from 2008, however, is closed. But look here:
Archiv 2008: Suomi - Finnisch (2)
Archiv 2008: Suomi - Finnisch

So our suomi.dic seems to be the list which can be downloaded for free from http://kaino.kotus.fi/sanat/nykysuomi/ on the right hand:

Lataa sanalista
Kotuksen sanalistan voit ladata alla olevista linkeistä:

• kotus-sanalista-v1.zip
tai
• kotus-sanalista-v1.tar.gz


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Bussinchen Online




Posts: 11

Mon Nov 21, 2011 1:25 am
#11 RE: The Finnish dictionary and our suomi.dic Quote · reply

More links for Finnish Open Source word lists:

http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki...h_.28Finland.29 (unfortunately that link does not work)

http://voikko.sourceforge.net/


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xyz Offline



Posts: 69

Thu Nov 29, 2012 3:30 pm
#12 RE: The Finnish dictionary and our suomi.dic Quote · reply

The kotus list which I edited for suomi.dic contained 94110 words, and the version I sent (years ago) seems to have the right number, also (see Finnisch Archiv 2008).

But suomi.dic contains 93695 words, so about 415 words are missing.

The original version I sent was in lowercase. Suomi.dic is uppercase and with a slightly different alphabetical order, so maybe the words have been lost in the same process?

I attach here the original list with 94110 words, encoding UTF-8, uppercase. I hope it is the right format. All the special characters should be right now. Can you put in the version number etc., I don't know what it should be.

I found one mistake I made when editing the original list in lowercase, the first å in "ångstöm" should be written with lowercase.

The original kotus list also contains inflection information, maybe it could be used in dividing the list in word classes (verbs, etc). But if nobody has even noticed the dictionary is missing 400 or so words, maybe it is not such a useful idea.

About the quality of the kotus list, I think it is not so bad after all. It's the basis for the Language Office dictionary, which has some thousands of extra new words. If there is no Scrabble association in Finland (I haven't found one), in my opinion there is not much point in having a non-free dictionary as the "official" list for Finnish.

Attachment:
kotus-wordlist_v1_94110words_UTF8_UPPERCASE.zip

Bussinchen Online




Posts: 11

Thu Nov 29, 2012 6:52 pm
#13 RE: The Finnish dictionary and our suomi.dic Quote · reply

The header of your old suomi.dic is like this:
[Header]
Version=100001
Author=xyz
StandardCategory=nicht zugeordnet
[Categories]
[Words]


The header of the German dictionary deutsch.dic is like this:

[Header]
Version=200019
Author=Gero Illing <scrabblegero@googlemail.com>
StandardCategory=Rechtschreibduden
Licence=Copyright Gero Illing, Nutzung und freie Verbreitung ausschließlich zusammen mit dem Programm Scrabble3D gestattet
Comment=Superdic Stand 15.05.12, encrypted
Key=S3MMjf46
[Replace]
[Categories]
1=Universalduden
2=Freestyle und Duden-Oldies
[Words]


So you see that you should add a definition for what is the StandardCategory; I think besides Author you should write your correct name instead of xyz and add your email address; Licence: You should write which one you want: GNU-GPL oder CC Creative Commons non commercial...
You can even leave a Comment; and you have to decide whether you want Scotty to encrypt your word list or not (tell him by email). The information about the Key is nothing you have to write, and Replace is irrelevant for the Finnish language (it is relevant only for languages with digraphs).

Since Kotus already is a free word list, I suggest some header like this for your updated suomi.dic:

[Header]
Version=100002
Author=xyz (to be replaced by your name) <xyz@email.fi>
StandardCategory=Kotus Licence=GNU General Public License (or CC or what you prefer)
Comment=This word list is based on Kotus word list. (or something like that; you can explain a little bit what Kotus is, in English or Finnish)
[Replace]
[Categories]
[Words]


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Scotty Offline

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Posts: 3.607

Thu Nov 29, 2012 7:19 pm
#14 RE: The Finnish dictionary and our suomi.dic Quote · reply

Your dictionary contains 93695 unique words (the rest of 94110 entries are duplicates) with several strange letters:
´," ",-,',¢,4,A,Á,À,Å,Ä,B,C,D,E,É,È,Ê,F,G,H,I,Î,J,K,L,M,N,O,Ö,P,Q,R,S,Š,T,U,Û,V,W,X,Y,Z,Ž, 

I don't remember exactly how we managed to create the current list but I guess it would be the result after removing all these problems.

Letters are only allowed (and converted to) as upper-case. The sort order is applied automatically based on ordinal value of character.

BTW: I'd like to add your real name with email address to the list header. And, according to Bussinchen's posting, you should think about licence (GPL v3) and plain text, i.e. not scrambled.


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Bussinchen Online




Posts: 11

Thu Nov 29, 2012 7:25 pm
#15 RE: The Finnish dictionary and our suomi.dic Quote · reply

This problem is related to the questions about the letter set
--> Finnish letter set

Unfortunately I have not yet been able to discuss these things with you, but I will do it as soon as possible on Finnish letter set .
That discussion will have consequences for our Finnish word list suomi.dic.


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