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 Catalan
Bussinchen Offline




Posts: 2

Mon Jul 23, 2012 8:00 pm
"Senyors" - the Catalan variant of Italian "Cambio Secco" Quote · reply



"Senyors" - the Catalan variant of Italian "Cambio Secco"

Zitat von jmontane im Beitrag RE: catala.dic for Scrabble3D
Just to remark. Keep in mind the Catalan rules called "senyors", similar to Italian "cambio secco". I know Scotty refuses to implement over features. In fact, "cambio secco" is good for me, but in Catalan scrabble "senyors" (free bad rack swap) is really used. This rule is applied at end of the turn. So, at every turn, when you get new tiles, if all tiles are consonants (or vowels) the player can change them for free, without penalty. If tiles are changed using this rule, all tiles must be changed.


Yes, this is very interesting! We can have this thread for discussions about the Catalan Senyors rule, and we'll see, if Scotty wants to implement senyors or not. We'll see.


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Bussinchen Offline




Posts: 2

Mon Jul 23, 2012 9:10 pm
#2 RE: "Senyors" - the Catalan variant of Italian "Cambio Secco" Quote · reply

Since we don't have exactly the "senyors" function in Scrabble3D, I suggest that we'll activate the Italian "cambio secco" in our default settings for Catalan rules. I think that this will be a rather good compromise for Catalan Scrabble3D players.

--> CambioSecco:true;


By the way:
Why is it called just "senyors"? I think senyors means señores like in Spanish (castellano) or elder like in latin?
Maybe it means "Gentlemen agreement" (acord de senyors)?


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Bussinchen Offline




Posts: 2

Mon Jul 23, 2012 9:29 pm
#3 RE: "Senyors" - the Catalan variant of Italian "Cambio Secco" Quote · reply

Dear Joan, I would like to know:

Can senyors be done only once in a game like cambio secco in Italy or is it possible to do several senyors during the game?


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Bussinchen Offline




Posts: 2

Mon Jul 23, 2012 9:52 pm
#4 RE: "Senyors" - the Catalan variant of Italian "Cambio Secco" Quote · reply

Ah - sorry, I just have found the senyors rule in http://www.fiscrabble.cat/wp-content/upl...ment-de-joc.pdf, page 3.


Zitat von http://www.fiscrabble.cat/wp-content/upl...ment-de-joc.pdf
3. Agafar i canviar peces

Mentre en quedin suficients al sac, cada jugador ha de tenir sempre set peces al faristol.
Quan un jugador té set fitxes al faristol que són tot vocals o tot consonants (sense cap
escarràs), està autoritzat (no obligat) a canviar totes les lletres fins que comenci el torn del
jugador contrari. Per fer‐ho haurà de mostrar el faristol al seu oponent, retornar totes les
peces al sac i agafar‐ne un altre cop set, abans de prémer el rellotge. En aquest cas, el jugador
que canvia les lletres no perdrà el torn.

Si després de canviar‐les continua tenint tot vocals o tot consonants, es demanarà a un dels
àrbitres que comprovi les peces restants. Segons les que quedin, es procedirà de la manera
següent:

a) En cas d’haver‐hi una sola vocal o consonant (segons s’escaigui) o un sol escarràs, es posarà
aquesta peça al faristol del jugador. Les restants es posaran al sac i s’extrauran de nou les
sis que li manquin.

b) Si hi ha dues vocals o consonants, o més, es posaran totes les peces del faristol al sac i el
jugador repetirà l’operació d’extracció fins que aconsegueixi tenir un faristol amb almenys
una vocal o una consonant.

c) Si no queda cap peça de les necessàries, el jugador es quedarà les peces que té al faristol i
continuarà el joc.




That means that if the player A who has done a senyors still has only vowels or only consonants on his rack, the referee will check the letters which are remaining in the sack.
• If there is only one vowel or only one consonant or only one joker in the sack, the referee will give this tile to the player A, who has to put back into the sack the other six tiles on his rack, in order to draw six other tiles.
• If there are two or more vowels or consonants in the sack, the player A is allowed to change again all his tiles in a new senyors, as he did before, and he is allowed to repeat this operation several times, if necessary, until he will have got at least one vowel or one consonant on his rack.
• If there are no vowels or no consonants in the sack any more, the player A has to keep his letters and to continue playing with those letters.


This rule is very interesting, indeed!


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jmontane Offline




Posts: 63

Mon Jul 23, 2012 10:31 pm
#5 RE: "Senyors" - the Catalan variant of Italian "Cambio Secco" Quote · reply

Zitat von Bussinchen im Beitrag #4

That means that if the player A who has done a senyors still has only vowels or only consonants on his rack, the referee will check the letters which are remaining in the sack.
• If there is only one vowel or only one consonant or only one joker in the sack, the referee will give this tile to the player A, who has to put back into the sack the other six tiles on his rack, in order to draw six other tiles.
• If there are two or more vowels or consonants in the sack, the player A is allowed to change again all his tiles in a new senyors, as he did before, and he is allowed to repeat this operation several times, if necessary, until he will have got at least one vowel or one consonant on his rack.
• If there are no vowels or no consonants in the sack any more, the player A has to keep his letters and to continue playing with those letters.


This rule is very interesting, indeed!


Yes, you get the meaning of rule fine.

This rule is from pre-computer games era, In Catalan, games from 3 and 4 players are/were played very often, because CUSCA championships creates a ranting based on averages. So, bad racks are a pain and senyors rule was developed. From CUSCA leage, this rule goes to classic 1vs1 scrabble games and championships, where is used by all the Catalan clubs.

Setting Cambio secco true is a good aproach for Catalan. I like this rule, it's a good aproach beetwen easy game (senyors) and hard game (lost of turn if exchange tiles).

In fact, senyors is something like gentlemen. First players at Queimada (the first club) were only men, so, senyors was a short for "senyors, tinc un faristol dolent" (gentlemen, I have a bad rack)


Bussinchen Offline




Posts: 2

Mon Jul 23, 2012 10:50 pm
#6 RE: "Senyors" - the Catalan variant of Italian "Cambio Secco" Quote · reply

Zitat von jmontane

In fact, senyors is something like gentlemen. First players at Queimada (the first club) were only men, so, senyors was a short for "senyors, tinc un faristol dolent" (gentlemen, I have a bad rack)


Yeah! Good! "Senyors, tinc un faristol dolent"


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Scotty Offline

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Posts: 3.595

Sun Jul 29, 2012 2:01 pm
#7 RE: "Senyors" - the Catalan variant of Italian "Cambio Secco" Quote · reply

Zitat von jmontane on catala.dic for Scrabble3D
Keep in mind the Catalan rules called "senyors", similar to Italian "cambio secco". I know Scotty refuses to implement over features. In fact, "cambio secco" is good for me, but in Catalan scrabble "senyors" (free bad rack swap) is really used. This rule is applied at end of the turn. So, at every turn, when you get new tiles, if all tiles are consonants (or vowels) the player can change them for free, without penalty. If tiles are changed using this rule, all tiles must be changed.

Before implementing such a rule one need to define vowels. Of course AEIOU, maybe ÄÖÜ, perhaps  or some digraphs (my keyboard is limited *g*). Such a functions needs to be valid for all languages. Sounds difficult.


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Bussinchen Offline




Posts: 2

Sun Jul 29, 2012 2:14 pm
#8 RE: "Senyors" - the Catalan variant of Italian "Cambio Secco" Quote · reply

Zitat von Scotty in post #7 "Senyors" - the Catalan variant of Italian "Cambio Secco"
Before implementing such a rule one need to define vocals. Of course AEIOU, maybe ÄÖÜ, perhaps  or some digraphs (my keyboard is limited *g*). Such a function needs to be valid for all languages. Sounds difficult.


Especially when it comes to semivowels/semiconsonants / identical letters that sometimes are considered being vowels, sometimes consonants...


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jmontane Offline




Posts: 63

Sun Jul 29, 2012 10:15 pm
#9 RE: "Senyors" - the Catalan variant of Italian "Cambio Secco" Quote · reply

Zitat von Bussinchen in post #8 "Senyors" - the Catalan variant of Italian "Cambio Secco"

Zitat von Scotty
Before implementing such a rule one need to define vocals. Of course AEIOU, maybe ÄÖÜ, perhaps  or some digraphs (my keyboard is limited *g*). Such a function needs to be valid for all languages. Sounds difficult.


Especially when it comes to semivowels/semiconsonants / identical letters that sometimes are considered being vowels, sometimes consonants...




Eliot and Quackle projects have two additional columns in tiles distribution: vowel and consonant columns, boolean fields. So, every language, defines if a tiles is a consonat, vowel or booth (blank tile).

I know this rules is very special, it's not a high priority for me. But in Catalan is really used.


Bussinchen Offline




Posts: 2

Mon Jul 30, 2012 1:10 am
#10 RE: "Senyors" - the Catalan variant of Italian "Cambio Secco" Quote · reply



Adminchen: I have moved the three last posts from the thread catala.dic for Scrabble3D to this thread "Senyors" - the Catalan variant of Italian "Cambio Secco", because they were offtopic there. Please continue your discussion about vowels and consonants here, because that question is related to the Catalan rule called "Senyors".

By the way: There is a new bug in this forum software. As you can see, quotation formatting is not shown correctly when posts have been copied from another thread. I don't want to fix that now, because I want to show this bug to Ingmar or Johannes from the homepagemodules/Xobor Support first. I'm sure they will fix this bug very soon. Thank you for your understanding. I will fix wrong formatting and wrong links in those quotations manually later on.

http://www.hpm-support.de/t532497f117691...html#msg7221660




[EDIT 30/07/2012] This bug has already been fixed. Thank you, Ingmar! I have fixed manually the formatting in quotations now. /Adminchen


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