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 Ἑλληνικὴ γλῶσσα - Ancient Greek - Altgriechisch
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Bussinchen Offline




Posts: 2

Sat Jun 04, 2011 11:14 am
#16 RE: Ancient Greek Dictionary: ancient-greek.dic Quote · reply

Zitat von linhart
Just keep the shift key pressed while using the down-key.


Thank you, dear Linhart, for your advice!


But:

When I wanted to create the vocabulary list of ALL Ancient Greek words in the works stored in the Perseus data base, after having selected all the works at a time, from Aeschines to Xenophon, I got this answer:
Request-URI Too Large
The requested URL's length exceeds the capacity limit for this server


It is also possible to select only e few, let's say 5 or 10 works at a time:
Select the first work, keep the shift key pressed and select the last one.

I'll try that.


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Bussinchen Offline




Posts: 2

Sat Jun 04, 2011 5:05 pm
#17 RE: Ancient Greek Dictionary: ancient-greek.dic Quote · reply

It is really irritating that the Perseus-website creates error messages so often:

Zitat von Perseus on http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/vocablist
An Error Occurred
Sorry, we were unable to load the page you were looking for!
You've encountered an error that probably occurred due to a problem on our end. The error has been logged, and we'll be looking into fixing it. If you'd like to help us out, you can fill out the following form



That means that it is rather difficult to create word lists, because it is not possible to go on rapidly.

Just now I have created only one list for the words in

Aeschines, Speeches
Aeschylus, Agamemnon (ed. Herbert Weir Smyth, Ph.D.)
Aeschylus, Eumenides (ed. Herbert Weir Smyth, Ph.D.)
Aeschylus, Libation Bearers (ed. Herbert Weir Smyth, Ph.D.)
Aeschylus, Persians (ed. Herbert Weir Smyth, Ph.D.)
Aeschylus, Prometheus Bound (ed. Herbert Weir Smyth, Ph.D.)
Aeschylus, Seven Against Thebes (ed. Herbert Weir Smyth, Ph.D.)
Aeschylus, Suppliant Women (ed. Herbert Weir Smyth, Ph.D.)

This list comprises about 10700 words (see my attached Excel-file)


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Attachment:
Aeschines-Aeschylus.xls

linhart Offline




Posts: 2.463

Sat Jun 04, 2011 9:10 pm
#18 RE: Ancient Greek Dictionary: ancient-greek.dic Quote · reply

Thank you, Bussinchen!
I am happy to see that you succeeded in copying this word list into Excel.

Maybe we should divide the work into two parts, one for you and one for me. If you agree, I would try to start with Lucian, for instance.


Bussinchen Offline




Posts: 2

Sat Jun 04, 2011 9:21 pm
#19 RE: Ancient Greek Dictionary: ancient-greek.dic Quote · reply

Yes, Linhart, why not!

But just now always the same error occurs, and unfortunately I cannot continue!
Not in Internet Explorer, not in Mozilla Firefox, not in Google Chrome.
What shall I do...
Maybe tomorrow it will work better!

I copied my list like that:
First I pasted the list in Microsoft Windows' WordPad - and the Greek letters were shown.
Then I copied it from WordPad and pasted it into Excel - and now the Greek letters were shown correctly again!

Silly workaround, but it works!


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Apollonius Offline




Posts: 144

Sat Jun 04, 2011 11:47 pm
#20 RE: Ancient Greek Dictionary: ancient-greek.dic Quote · reply

I'm sorry I've been out of the conversation! And I had the page open all day!

It took me a long time just to read through everything, because I've been so busy (doing boring crap that has nothing to do with Scrabble3D, unfortunately). But now I'm settled in at home until about 3 PM on Sunday! I did get to paint a little bit though, and update my fb artist page.

I am willing to continue to extract the words the way I have been, and leave it to you to remove the punctuation if you can! That would be great if you could do it that way, because otherwise I'd be doing it 15,000 times just for the letter "A"!

And I don't mind building the list this way because this list is compiled from EVERY source in Perseus' library. I haven't run searches for any other letter besides "A", but even if 20,000 was an average, if you multiply that x26, that's 520,000 words. Well I can already tell you, 20,000 is NOT going to be average, but more on the high end. But you see what I mean, it's much more of a viable set of words for a lexicon! If somebody makes this work obsolete by getting at the full list all at once, then more power to you. I wish you luck! I don't mind doing it this way in the meantime because I'm too excited about having an ancient Greek scrabble dictionary.

And Bussinchen, are you saying you have found a way?


Bussinchen Offline




Posts: 2

Sun Jun 05, 2011 4:00 am
#21 RE: Ancient Greek Dictionary: ancient-greek.dic Quote · reply

Tonight, I wrote an email to Professor Gruber and to Professor Holzberg at the University of Munich in Germany.


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linhart Offline




Posts: 2.463

Sun Jun 05, 2011 5:17 am
#22 RE: Ancient Greek Dictionary: ancient-greek.dic Quote · reply

I am very curious if one of these professors can help us.

@Apollonius: The list you are building up seems to me the very best. Don't worry about the punctuation! This will be no problem.

By the way: Are accents very essential in ancient greek? That means, should there be special tiles with accents, like e.g. in Hungarian? Or do you think that the modern Greek letter set is also suited for ancient greek?


linhart Offline




Posts: 2.463

Sun Jun 05, 2011 7:05 am
#23 RE: Ancient Greek Dictionary: ancient-greek.dic Quote · reply

Now I succeeded in making a list of words from the first 10 books of Lucian. It did not work with wordpad, so I used Mathematica and produced an Excel file containing only the words and definitions (see appendix).

Attachment:
LucianWords_1.xls

linhart Offline




Posts: 2.463

Sun Jun 05, 2011 8:16 am
#24 RE: Ancient Greek Dictionary: ancient-greek.dic Quote · reply

With some patience, I finally managed to get the words from all 71 books of Lucian (see appendix).

To avoid the error message, I think one should wait a certain time (perhaps 10 minutes or so) after each calling.

Attachment:
LucianWords_all.xls

linhart Offline




Posts: 2.463

Sun Jun 05, 2011 9:53 am
#25 RE: Ancient Greek Dictionary: ancient-greek.dic Quote · reply

Now I am stuck, since there is always this error message, no matter how long I wait. This is of course rather frustrating.
I think it will be better to concentrate on the lists of Apollonius.


Bussinchen Offline




Posts: 2

Sun Jun 05, 2011 4:55 pm
#26 RE: Ancient Greek Dictionary: ancient-greek.dic Quote · reply

Thank you very much, Linhart, for your excellent word list extracted from Lucian's works.

I have studied it a little bit, and unfortunately I must say that there are only the ordinary dictionary lemmata, but no inflected forms. You must know that in both Latin and Greek for instance the verb lemmata in dictionaries are never given in their infinitive form, but always as 1st person singular, present tense, indicative mode. So the lemmata for those regulary verbs that have active form end always in -ω (omega).

Excerpt from your list:


λύρα lyre
λύρον [unavailable]
λύσις loosing, ransoming
λυσιτελέω to pay what is due
λυσιτελής paying what is due
λύσσα rage.
λυσσάω to be raging
λύτρον requital
λυτρόω to release on receipt of ransom, to hold to ransom
λυχνίον a lamp-stand
λυχνίς lychnis
λύχνον [unavailable]
λύχνος light, lamp
λύω loose, loosen, set free
λωβάομαι maltreat, outrage;
λωίων more desirable, more agreeable
λῷος [unavailable]
λωποδυτέω to steal clothes
λωποδύτης one who slips into another's clothes, a clothes-stealer
λωτέω play the flute
λωτός lotus.
μά by


Let's look on λύω = I loose, I loosen, I set free. If there were all the inflected forms of that verb in the list, we should find for example forms like λύεις = you loosen, λύει = he, she it loosens, λύομεν = we loosen, λύετε = you loosen, λύουσι or λύουσιν = they loosen for the 2nd and 3rd person singular and the 1st, 2nd and 3rd person plural, present tense, indicative, active voice. But these forms are not in the list. And I'm not talking about other forms you can find on http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Altgriechis...gationstabellen as for example λύσω, λύσεις, λύσει, λύσομεν, λύσετε, λύσουσι(ν) for the future tense, or λύσαιμι, λύσαις, λύσαι, λύσαιμεν, λύσαιτε, λύσαιεν for the optative aorist and so on.

It's the same thing for nouns. Let's study for instance the noun φίλος = friend (in the list: φίλος = beloved, dear).
I do not find even one of the following inflected forms besides the lemma itself which is given in the nominative singular masculine form:


Singular Plural
Nominative ho philos ὁ φίλος hoi philoi οἱ φίλοι
Genitive tou philou τοῦ φίλου tōn philōn τῶν φίλων
Dative tō philō τῷ φίλῳ tois philois τοῖς φίλοις
Accusative ton philon τὸν φίλον tous philous τοὺς φίλους
Vokative ō phile ὦ φίλε ō philoi ὦ φίλοι


So after this little spot check I can already say that if we continue creating word lists like this, we will not have inflected forms in our list, only the lemmata.

That's exactly what I had told to Apollonius yesterday in the Skype chat, when he showed me a small part of his list of words he had created in his way. Yesterday already I believed that it could be like that, but today I'm rather sure that we will not get any inflected forms in our lists extracted from the Perseus data base.


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Bussinchen Offline




Posts: 2

Sun Jun 05, 2011 5:18 pm
#27 RE: Ancient Greek Dictionary: ancient-greek.dic Quote · reply

This link might be interesting for us:

https://perswww.kuleuven.be/~u0013314/greekg/diction.htm


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Bussinchen Offline




Posts: 2

Sun Jun 05, 2011 5:21 pm
#28 RE: Ancient Greek Dictionary: ancient-greek.dic Quote · reply

We should check up even this link:

http://greek.kihlman.eu/


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linhart Offline




Posts: 2.463

Mon Jun 06, 2011 9:16 am
#29 RE: Ancient Greek Dictionary: ancient-greek.dic Quote · reply

Apollonius' list will contain approximately 150,000 words. If we added all inflected forms, we would probably get several millions of words. This sounds like the Hungarian word list.

But an even more serious problem is that we have no computer-aids to generate those forms (like we have in Hungarian). If we only have books about the grammar, I think we will not succeed.


Apollonius Offline




Posts: 144

Mon Jun 06, 2011 10:05 am
#30 RE: Ancient Greek Dictionary: ancient-greek.dic Quote · reply

It is the same way with the English dictionary. Not every form of every word is included in the scrabble dictionary, even though technically they are words by virtue of the rules of the language. One example of this is the word "SPLINTER", which can be a verb. According to the rules of the English language, you would add "ER" to a verb to describe a person or thing that does the action represented in that verb. So for "SPLINTER", a thing which does that would be a "SPLINTERER"...however, that word is not present in the TWL or SOWPODS dictionaries because it isn't widely used enough. The fact that these words are derived from ancient written sources shows that they were at least used contextually in the literature of the day.

Believe me, I don't know how many times I've argued with the dictionary in scrabble and wished that there was a closer adherence to the rules of the language!

But a dictionary in the millions of words does seem a bit extreme.


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