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 Ἑλληνικὴ γλῶσσα - Ancient Greek - Altgriechisch
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Bussinchen Online




Posts: 6

Mon May 30, 2011 9:27 am
Ancient Greek Dictionary: ancient-greek.dic Quote · reply

Apollonius wrote in his posting #1 on SKINS!

Zitat von Apollonius
I'm also an ancient Greece fanatic, [...]

...and he said in a Skype chat we had some days ago:

Zitat von Apollonius
[5/28/2011 8:32:10 PM] Loren Hall: I know...SO MANY languages!!! Greek would be nice. :)


Then he wrote to me in a forum mail:

Zitat von Apollonius
WOW WOW WOW!! @_@

You have NO IDEA how cool it would be to me to have not only a Greek dictionary, but an ANCIENT GREEK one. No. Idea. LOL! I would use a Greek font, load up a Greek skin, and just marvel at it. [...] It's nice to know that you are interested in Ancient Greece also!

ISN'T IT INTERESTING?? :D



So let's start a discussion about an Ancient Greek Dictionary for Scrabble3D!

I propose to do it in English, because I don't want to exclude our new American forum member Apollonius from this discussion. Okay?
But if there is somebody who prefers to speak German, you may do it, of course!


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Bussinchen Online




Posts: 6

Fri Jun 03, 2011 5:46 am
#2 RE: Ancient Greek Dictionary: ancient-greek.dic Quote · reply

I have found some links that could be interesting for us in the future. If we cannot find any electronic ancient Greek word list, maybe we must create one from antique texts.


Thesaurus Linguae Graecae: http://www.tlg.uci.edu/

Perseus Digital Library: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/

Perseus Collection - Greek and Roman Materials: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/coll...ion:Greco-Roman


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Apollonius Offline




Posts: 144

Fri Jun 03, 2011 8:47 am
#3 RE: Ancient Greek Dictionary: ancient-greek.dic Quote · reply

Thank you for the English discussion, Bussinchen!

And I'm working on a word list as we speak. I can't promise anything yet, but I think this will be better than anything else I've been able to find so far. All I've found are SCANT word lists of around 1000 words, which is pitiful. From the Persus link you provided, I was able to find an ancient Greek word list, but it isn't all bundled together in one easy download, it seems. I'm going to have to copy-paste a lot, but I'm going to save that as a TXT file. Will that be useful? That will not include definitions, unfortunately. :( That hurts.

Also, a lot of these words are apparently proper nouns. Even if it was decided to keep those, I imagine that it would be hard to play them (no pluralization, etc).

This is a lot of work. I'm going to stop where I am until I know if a simple TXT list of words without definitions will be good enough to start an ancient Greek scrabble list. There was somewhere on the boards where people talked about hyphens showing up in words, and about unicode, etc...but now I can't find it. Well a LOT of these ancient Greek words have hyphens in them, or colons. Is this normal?


linhart Offline




Posts: 2.463

Fri Jun 03, 2011 9:46 am
#4 RE: Ancient Greek Dictionary: ancient-greek.dic Quote · reply

If you can provide us with a simple txt-file, this would be fine.

As fas as I understand you, you are going to make a huge txt-file containing classic greek literature. The only problem might be that the file is too large. I can only manage files with not much more than 100 MB. If it were larger, it should be split up into smaller parts.

Or are you able to produce a word list (with different words) by yourself? This would of course be the best way.

Greek texts contain not only hyphens but also lots of accents and the like. I think for Scrabble purposes the accents should be deleted, which does not seem to be difficult. It would also be no problem to eliminate all words containing hyphens.

Are proper nouns in Greek written with a capital letter in the beginning? If not, I think it will be almost impossible to eliminate them.


Bussinchen Online




Posts: 6

Fri Jun 03, 2011 1:13 pm
#5 RE: Ancient Greek Dictionary: ancient-greek.dic Quote · reply

Zitat von linhart
Are proper nouns in Greek written with a capital letter in the beginning? If not, I think it will be almost impossible to eliminate them.


During the classical and the hellenistic period of the Greek language only capital letters were used by the Greeks themselves. Minuscules did not exist yet. They were invented later, maybe in the 9th century AD. But in modern editions of Ancient Greek texts, minuscules are used and proper nouns are written with a capital letter in the beginning. So I think it will not be difficult to eliminate the proper nouns from the list.


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Bussinchen Online




Posts: 6

Fri Jun 03, 2011 1:23 pm
#6 RE: Ancient Greek Dictionary: ancient-greek.dic Quote · reply

Zitat von Apollonius
1. I'm going to stop where I am until I know if a simple TXT list of words without definitions will be good enough to start an ancient Greek scrabble list.
2. Well a LOT of these ancient Greek words have hyphens in them, or colons. Is this normal?



ad 1. Yes, everything is suitable. We have to start somewhere...
ad 2. Can you give me some examples?


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Bussinchen Online




Posts: 6

Fri Jun 03, 2011 1:24 pm
#7 RE: Ancient Greek Dictionary: ancient-greek.dic Quote · reply

I intend to contact my former university Latin and Ancient Greek language professors in Germany; maybe they could help us a little bit or give us some good advice... About 30 years ago, I had been their student...


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Apollonius Offline




Posts: 144

Fri Jun 03, 2011 8:12 pm
#8 RE: Ancient Greek Dictionary: ancient-greek.dic Quote · reply

Zitat von linhart
If you can provide us with a simple txt-file, this would be fine.

As fas as I understand you, you are going to make a huge txt-file containing classic greek literature. The only problem might be that the file is too large. I can only manage files with not much more than 100 MB. If it were larger, it should be split up into smaller parts.

Or are you able to produce a word list (with different words) by yourself? This would of course be the best way.

Greek texts contain not only hyphens but also lots of accents and the like. I think for Scrabble purposes the accents should be deleted, which does not seem to be difficult. It would also be no problem to eliminate all words containing hyphens.

Are proper nouns in Greek written with a capital letter in the beginning? If not, I think it will be almost impossible to eliminate them.




Well, what I'm doing is copying the word list which runs down the left-hand side of this page:
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text...9.04.0057:entry=*a&toc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aalphabetic+letter%3D*a%3Aentry+group%3D244

[EDIT] I don't know why this link isn't formatting correctly...

It only allows you to view 50 words at a time, so I can only copy and paste that many at a time. There are over 20,000 words beginning with "A", and right now I have about 15,000. I've been at it for hours. Good thing it's a labor of love! And this is only the first letter of the alphabet! 25 more to go!

Oh and Bussinchen, here is an example of what I'm seeing:

"ἀπίσσωτος
ἀπιστ-εύω
ἀπιστ-έω
ἀπιστ-ητέον
ἀπιστ-ητικός
ἀπιστία
ἄπιστος
ἀπιστοσύνη
ἀπιστούντως
ἀπιστόφι^λος
ἀπισχν-αίνω
ἀπισχν-αντέον
ἀπισχν-όω
ἀπισχυ_ρ-ίζομαι
ἀπισχυ_ρ-ιστικῶς
ἀπίσχω
ἀπίσωσις
ἀπι^τέον"

See, there are both hyphens and underscores in that sample. There is also an occasional colon, but I was having trouble finding one among 15,000 entries. I'm about to go back to my own house for the weekend. When I get there I will continue working on this.


Bussinchen Online




Posts: 6

Fri Jun 03, 2011 9:24 pm
#9 RE: Ancient Greek Dictionary: ancient-greek.dic Quote · reply

I have found something tremendous on the Perseus site:

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text...a)asifrosu%2Fnh (please copy & paste the whole link into your web browser)

I clicked on More search options on the right side in the grey area Search,
and I arrived here:
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/sear...a)asifrosu%2Fnh

Then I clicked on link on the right hand besides Vocabulary Tool,
and I arrived here:
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/vocablist

Then I selected Aeschines, Speeches, selected the radio buttons for Alphabetical order, all words and Table.
The I clicked on the button Show vocabulary

It took a moment and then I got a list of all the words in the Speeches of Aeschines (see my screenshots), even with the English translation that we could use for our Scrabble3D tooltips!!! There were several thousands of words only for Aeschines! But as far as I can see, there are no inflected forms, only the main forms as lemmata.

(When I wanted to do it once more for another author, unfortunately an error occured and now I cannot generate such vocabulary lists any more, because the same error occurs every time I try. )

We could generate a vocabulary list for every Greek author listed on the Perseus site, put them all together and eliminate all the doublets and the proper nouns and names.
But then we will not have inflected forms anyway.


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Attached pictures:
Perseus_Greek Vocabulary Tool.jpg   Perseus_Greek Vocabulary Tool_Results_1.jpg   Perseus_Greek Vocabulary Tool_Results_2.jpg  
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Bussinchen Online




Posts: 6

Fri Jun 03, 2011 9:50 pm
#10 RE: Ancient Greek Dictionary: ancient-greek.dic Quote · reply

I tried once more, this time not in Internet Explorer, but in Mozilla Firefox, and I succeeded in generating a vocabulary list for Aeschylos, Agamemnon.

When I copy the list and paste it into Excel or my Editor Notepad++, however, all Greek letters are shown as question marks!

Obviously there is a problem with Unicode again!

Is it like this in your program Mathematica, too, Linhart?


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linhart Offline




Posts: 2.463

Fri Jun 03, 2011 10:11 pm
#11 RE: Ancient Greek Dictionary: ancient-greek.dic Quote · reply

Very interesting! I have found this link previously, but also an error occured, and so I could not follow it.
I'll try it out as soon as I can. (This will probably be on Sunday.)


Bussinchen Online




Posts: 6

Fri Jun 03, 2011 10:35 pm
#12 RE: Ancient Greek Dictionary: ancient-greek.dic Quote · reply

Zitat
ἀπίσσωτος
ἀπιστ-εύω
ἀπιστ-έω
ἀπιστ-ητέον
ἀπιστ-ητικός
ἀπιστία
ἄπιστος
ἀπιστοσύνη
ἀπιστούντως
ἀπιστόφι^λος
ἀπισχν-αίνω
ἀπισχν-αντέον
ἀπισχν-όω
ἀπισχυ_ρ-ίζομαι
ἀπισχυ_ρ-ιστικῶς
ἀπίσχω
ἀπίσωσις
ἀπι^τέον



Unfortunately, I don't find those words just now. Give me the correct link, please.
But as far as I can see, with my knowlegde of Ancient Greek, these hyphens, underscores and circumflexes have to be eliminated. These words are not written with hyphens in Greek. It is only a way to show to the users of the Perseus tool, how the words are compound: where does the word stem begin or end, and so on.

Let me give an example:

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morp...k&prior=nekrw/n

newly married, a young husband
νεόγαμος adj sg masc nom
νεόγαμος adj sg fem nom


If you click on "Show lexicon entry in LSJ"
we will see

νεό-γα^μος , ον,
A. newly married, of husband or wife, Hdt.1.36,37, D.H.8.56; ν. νύμφη, κόρη, A.Ag.1179, E.Med.324; ν. λέκτρα ib.1348.
II. married early, Ptol.Tetr.183.
This means that the word is compound, νεό- being "new, newly" and -γα^μος being "married".

But what does the underscore and the ^ mean?

• I think the underscore is a marker that shows that the rho only is an epenthesis (in German: Lauteinschub, Gleitlaut.
• The ^ might have something to do with the pronunciation and the quantitative meter in poetry, where patterns are based on syllable weight rather than stress. Maybe the ^ means that the syllable is long.

If you click on "Show lexicon entry in Middle Liddell" instead, you will see that Middle Liddell does not separate the word stems like that in Greek:

νεόγαμος 1
newly married, a young husband or wife, Hdt.; ν. νύμφη, κόρη Aesch., Eur.
1 neo/-ga^mos, on

They do it only in the Latin transliterated form.

Conclusion:
We can only take away these hyphens, underscores and circumflexes. They are not part of the Greek lemmata.


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Bussinchen Online




Posts: 6

Fri Jun 03, 2011 10:39 pm
#13 RE: Ancient Greek Dictionary: ancient-greek.dic Quote · reply

Ah, this is funny!!!

Ancient Greek for Scrabble3D is really cool!!!



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linhart Offline




Posts: 2.463

Sat Jun 04, 2011 6:36 am
#14 RE: Ancient Greek Dictionary: ancient-greek.dic Quote · reply

Sometimes I succeed in following the link of Bussinchen. But very often an error occurs.

The vocabulary list may be copied into the standard Windows editor with the greek letters preserved. But there are many empty lines and many numbers, so the file has to be modified to meet our needs. (I can perform such modifications with my Mathematica program.)

But the list of Apollonius is probably much better suited for Scrabble, since it seems to contain also inflected forms.

I think it will be no problem for me to eliminate all hyphens and the like.


linhart Offline




Posts: 2.463

Sat Jun 04, 2011 7:52 am
#15 RE: Ancient Greek Dictionary: ancient-greek.dic Quote · reply

On the site Bussinchen found (http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/vocablist) is it possible to select several works at a time. Just keep the shift key pressed while using the down-key. So, if no error occurs, it should in principle be possible to select all works and then get a list of ALL ancient greek words.


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