Zitat von xyz im Beitrag #15Interesting, that there is still one more letter, not mentioned here, in the Finnish alphabet. It's easy to forget because the letter is used in only one word in Finnish - at least in The Finnish Language Office dictionary.
You should explain better what you mean. Which letter are you talking about? Maybe Ü in müsli?
Zitat von xyz im Beitrag #15Still, there are letters not in the Finnish alphabet that must be used in correct Finnish! These are š and ž.
You should provide us trustworthy evidence for what you are saying. And give us some examples for valid Finnish words that are written with a hácek.
In French and Italian, for example, there are no letters with diacritic signs in Scrabble. In other languages it is different. We have implemented the letter set of the Finnish board game. Look here: http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scrabble#Fins
These are recommendations and guidelines, not laws.
Their kotus wordlist (origin of suomi.dic) doesn't have words like shakki (chess), it only has šakki, which is not used in practically any Finnish-language chess book, magazine or column. The last link allows both forms, but the common one is not on the word list. So, you have to take playing by the official list not so seriously.
The word šakki is misformatted in suomi.dic, I only corrected the letters Scrabble3D uses. It's not too difficult to update, though, if necessary.
All words containing a hyphen or an apostrophe have to be eliminated from our suomi.dic, because in all international Scrabble rules I have checked so far, such words are invalid words. The reason is that neither hyphens nor apostrophs are considered to be "letters" in Scrabble. Anyway: hyphens and apostrophes are not "letters" in the alphabet either.
Zitat von WESPA rules on http://www.wespa.org/rules/RulesV2nov11.pdf page 28Permitted words You may play any words listed in a standard English dictionary except those only spelt with an initial capital letter, abbreviations, prefixes and suffixes and words requiring apostrophes and hyphens. Foreign words in a standard English dictionary are considered to have been absorbed into the English language and are allowed. Prior to starting the game, all players must agree on a dictionary to be used.
So we shall not add hyphens and apostrophes to the Finnish letter set. We have to delete all words containing hyphens and apostrophes from the suomi.dic instead!
In our suomi.dic we have 21 words containing the letter Q, but we don't have the letter Q implemented in the Finnish letter set (not even Q 0 0 - see my post #3), which means that even though there are words in the dictionary, players will never be able to place those words, not even when using a joker, i.e. a blank tile. If we had implemented Q 0 0, this would mean that a joker could be used for the letter Q.
Search "Q" (21 hits in 1 file) C:\Users\Martina\AppData\Local\Scrabble3D\suomi.dic (21 hits) Line 4661: BECQUEREL Line 4936: BOUQUET Line 4942: BOUTIQUE Line 16861: JACQUARD Line 53820: PETANQUE Line 60174: QUASI Line 60175: QUENELLE Line 60176: QUICHE Line 60177: QUICKSTEP Line 60178: QUISLING Line 62329: REQUIEM Line 63705: ROQUEFORT Line 63706: ROQUEFORTINJUUSTO Line 63707: ROQUEFORTJUUSTO Line 71294: SQUASH Line 71295: SQUASH-HALLI Line 71296: SQUASH-MAILA Line 71297: SQUASH-OTTELU Line 71298: SQUASH-PALLO Line 71299: SQUASH-TURNAUS Line 77506: TEQUILA
There are about 85 words containing the letter W in the suomi.dic we have just now (I have eliminated double results):
Search "W" (85 hits in 1 file) C:\Users\Martina\AppData\Local\Scrabble3D\suomi.dic (85 hits) Line 6: [Words] Line 3291: ARROWJUURI Line 3292: ARROWJUURIJAUHO Line 4708: BESSERWISSER Line 5054: BUNGALOW Line 5112: CASHEWPÄHKINÄ Line 5179: COPYWRITER Line 5186: COWBOY Line 5187: COWBOYHATTU Line 5676: DRAG SHOW Line 5785: EDELWEISS Line 8597: FLOOR SHOW Line 9017: GIGAWATTI Line 9079: GOODWILL Line 10146: HARDWARE Line 16584: ITALOWESTERN Line 19212: JÄÄSHOW Line 25466: KILOWATTI Line 25467: KILOWATTITUNTI Line 25468: KILOWATTITUNTIMITTARI Line 26654: KIWI Line 26744: KNOW-HOW Line 26744: KNOW-HOW Line 30231: KUMINAUHATWIST Line 35073: LAVASHOW Line 41985: MEGAWATTI Line 44628: MUOTISHOW Line 46942: NEWFOUNDLANDINKOIRA Line 46943: NEWTON Line 47473: NON-WOVEN Line 61856: RAVINTOLASHOW Line 63796: ROTTWEILER Line 66377: SANDWICH Line 66378: SANDWICH-RAKENNE Line 68113: SHOW Line 70067: SOFTWARE Line 71178: SPAGETTIWESTERN Line 71194: SPEEDWAY Line 73196: SWAHILIN KIELI Line 73197: SWAP Line 73198: SWING Line 74734: TAEKWONDO Line 75504: TALK SHOW Line 77270: TELEVISIOSHOW Line 77520: TERAWATTI Line 79161: TOMAHAWK Line 79188: TONIC WATER Line 81499: TWEED Line 81500: TWEEDHAME Line 81501: TWEEDKANGAS Line 81502: TWEEDKANKAINEN Line 81503: TWEEDTAKKI Line 81504: TWIST Line 81505: TWISTATA Line 81506: TWISTNARU Line 85530: VALOSHOW Line 91404: WALDORFINSALAATTI Line 91405: WANKELMOOTTORI Line 91406: WATTI Line 91407: WC Line 91408: WC-ALLAS Line 91409: WC-ISTUIN Line 91410: WC-PAPERI Line 91411: WEBER Line 91412: WELLERISMI Line 91413: WESSI Line 91414: WESTERN Line 91415: WHIPPET Line 91416: WHISKY Line 91417: WIENERLEIPÄ Line 91418: WIENERVALSSI Line 91419: WIENILÄISTUOLI Line 91420: WIENILÄISVALSSI Line 91421: WIENINLEIKE Line 91422: WIGWAM Line 91422: WIGWAM Line 91423: WOK Line 91424: WOKPANNU Line 91425: WORKSHOP Line 91426: WWW Line 91427: WWW-VASTAAVA
There are about 28 words containing the letter X in the suomi.dic we have just now (I have eliminated double results):
Search "X" (28 hits in 1 file) C:\Users\Martina\AppData\Local\Scrabble3D\suomi.dic (28 hits) Line 3: Author=xyz Line 4658: BEAUTY BOX Line 4915: BORDEAUX Line 4916: BORDEAUXVIINI Line 5616: DIXIELAND Line 8239: EX TEMPORE Line 8240: EX- Line 8241: EXIMIA CUM LAUDE APPROBATUR Line 8242: EXLIBRIS Line 17896: JUKEBOX Line 38815: LUX Line 41560: MARXILAINEN Line 41561: MARXILAIS-LENINILÄINEN Line 41562: MARXILAISUUS Line 41563: MARXISMI Line 41564: MARXISMI-LENINISMI Line 41565: MARXISTI Line 69181: SIOUX Line 76780: TAX-FREE Line 76781: TAX-FREE-MYYMÄLÄ Line 76782: TAX-FREE-MYYNTI Line 77883: TEXASILAINEN Line 77884: TEXMEXRUOKA Line 77890: THORAX Line 91428: X-AKSELI Line 91429: X-KROMOSOMI Line 91430: XEROKOPIO
There are much less than 79 words containing the letter X in the suomi.dic we have just now (I have eliminated double results):
Search "Z" (79 hits in 1 file) C:\Users\Martina\AppData\Local\Scrabble3D\suomi.dic (79 hits) Line 3: Author=xyz Line 4: StandardCategory=nicht zugeordnet Line 3008: APPENZELLER Line 3009: APPENZELLERJUUSTO Line 4498: AZERBAIDžANI Line 4499: AZERBAIDžANILAINEN Line 4500: AZERBAIDžANIN KIELI Line 4501: AZERI Line 4502: AZERIN KIELI Line 4852: BLAZER Line 5074: BUZUKI Line 9083: GORGONZOLA Line 9084: GORGONZOLAJUUSTO Line 9085: GORGONZOLANJUUSTO Line 16094: INTERMEZZO Line 17249: JAZZ Line 17250: JAZZFESTIVAALI Line 17251: JAZZKLUBI Line 17252: JAZZLAULAJA Line 17253: JAZZMESSU Line 17254: JAZZMUSIIKKI Line 17255: JAZZMUUSIKKO Line 17256: JAZZORKESTERI Line 17257: JAZZTANSSI Line 20621: KAMIKAZELENTÄJÄ Line 42893: MEZZOFORTE Line 42894: MEZZOPIANO Line 42895: MEZZOSOPRAANO Line 42896: MEZZOTINTO Line 47350: NIZZANSALAATTI Line 50406: OUZO Line 51865: PAPARAZZI Line 55338: PIZZA Line 55339: PIZZERIA Line 55340: PIZZICATO Line 58807: PUZZLE Line 58808: PUZZLEPELI Line 67016: SCHERZO Line 93021: ZAMBO Line 93022: ZEN Line 93023: ZENBUDDHALAISUUS Line 93024: ZENIITTI Line 93025: ZEPPELIINI Line 93026: ZIRKONI Line 93027: ZIRKONIUM Line 93028: ZLOTY Line 93029: ZOMBI Line 93030: ZOMBIE Line 93031: ZOOLOGI Line 93032: ZOOLOGIA Line 93033: ZOOLOGINEN Line 93034: ZOOM-OBJEKTIIVI Line 93035: ZOOMATA Line 93036: ZOOMAUS Line 93037: ZOOMI Line 93038: ZOONOOSI Line 93039: ZUCCHINI Line 93040: ZULU
That means that after having eliminated the words with hyphens, there are only a 200 words with the letters Q W X Z in the dictionary containing about 94000 words. 200 words are only 0,2 % of the whole vocabulary, maybe even less.
In the normal Swedish board game, there are no letters Q, W, Ü eller Æ. But the official Swedish tournament rules stipulate that words with those letters can be placed if a joker (blank tile) is used:
Zitat von Official Swedish tournament rules on http://www.scrabbleforbundet.se/index.ph...id=16&Itemid=39• Ord med bokstäverna q, w, ü eller æ kan läggas, men bara med hjälp av en blank bricka. Ü finns endast i "müsli" och får inte ersättas med U eller Y. Æ finns i "læstadian" med flera, och får inte ersättas med ett Ä eller med AE, lika lite som W får ersättas med ett V.
That's why we have implemented Q 0 0, W 0 0, Ü 0 0 and Æ 0 0 in the Swedish letter set, which means that these letters are not a part of the regular Swedish letter set, but they appear in the letter choice when you want to place a blank tile, which gives zero points (Q 0 0 means: letter Q, quantity zero, zero points - in the letter set).
In the official Swedish tournament rules, we read about letters with diacritical signs:
Zitat von Official Swedish tournament rules on http://www.scrabbleforbundet.se/index.ph...id=16&Itemid=39• Bokstäver med accenter kan läggas. T.ex. kan "allé" läggas som ALLE. Detta E behandlas som vilket E som helst, så man kan använda det som ett vanligt E i ett vinkelrätt ord eller bygga ut detta ALLE till ALLENA utan att det spelar nån roll att detta E tidigare betecknade ett é med akut accent. Motsvarande gäller grav accent som i "pietà", cirkumflex som i "crêpe", tilde som i "jalapeño" och cedilj som i "moçambikisk". Däremot ses ü som en egen bokstav. [Detta stycke kompletterades vid årsmötet 7 maj 2006.]
This means that words that normally contain letters with diacritical signs like accents, tilde, cedilj are allowed to be placed, but by using the letters without accents, tilde, cedilj. And if a word is placed perpendicularly to a word which should have been a word with an accent, or if you elongate such a word, it doesn't matter if the accent is neglected: It has to be neglected!
The same rule is used in Italian and French Scrabble, where diacritical signs are very very common. But they are all neglected and the "nude" letter is used, for example FAÇON will be FACON, and ÉLÈVE will be ELEVE in French Scrabble. In Spanish, however, Ñ is a letter in the alphabet (like Ä and Ö in the Swedish alphabet) and it is a normal letter in the Spanish letter set, whilst accents and other diacritical signs are neglected.
In Hungarian Scrabble, in Irish Scrabble and in Scottishgaelic Scrabble, however, the use of letters with diacritical signs is different, which has something to do with the very high frequency and the phoneme status of those letters in those languages. You cannot compare that to the frequency of diacritical signs in the Finnish language.
So what does this international comparison mean for the Finnish letter set?
Zitat von xyz im Beitrag #19You are right! I should use that word (i.d. ångström) more often. [...] There are (loan) words in the list using non-Finnish alphabet: š Š in 64 words ž Ž 9
à À 3 á Á 1 â Â 1 è È 4 é É 10 ê Ê 1 î Î 1 ô Ô 1
Since the words with accents are so few in suomi.dic, in my opinion it is not a good idea to implement those letters as regular letters in the Finnish standard letter set. I think in this case it is better to apply the Swedish rule (see above) for Finnish games.
Since Š with hacek appears in 64 words, the frequency of which can be compared to that of the letters Q W X Z in suomi.dic, we could discuss if it would be a good idea to add Š 0 0. Then the letter Š would not appear on the rack, but it would be possible to use a blank tile for words with Š. But I would do this only if Q W X Z would be added with number zero and value zero as well. In my opinion, the case of the "Finnish" letter Å for the one and only word ÅNGSTRÖM can be compared to the Swedish case of Ü in MÜSLI. This means that we could add Å 0 0 to the Finnish letter set as well, so that players can use their jokers for Å.
But remember: The letters Q W X Z Å and Š, represented by jokers, will make it difficult to continue playing, because the words containing those letters are so few in the dic. The use of the letters Q W X Z Å and Š will in some measure "block" the game.
If you ask me, I would not add the letters with accents and haceks, because they are only variants of the same letters without accents and haceks. For Q W X Z and Å it is different, because these letters really are different letters, and when it comes to Å, the pronunciation like [o] is totally different from A [a]. We could add them all with number and value zero.
But please read again, what J24 has written before in this thread:
Zitat von Gast im Beitrag #8At least I and my co-players don't want to to use QWXZ in Scrabble. You can't use blank tiles for those letters. Yes, there are some words with those special letters, but we do not use them. We use the dictonary of Finnish Language Office. There are some valid pure loan words but not so many.
Unfortunately I don't know anything about J24, I don't know his competences about Scrabble in general. J24 expresses himself in a very subjective way. In my humble opinion that little group of players cannot be representative for the whole Finnish Scrabble community.
Regarding Scrabble3D, our problem is that there is - as far as I know - no official National Federation for Finnish Scrabble (cf. Links to International and National Scrabble Federations) which organizes official Scrabble tournaments in Finnish language. That's why we have to decide ourselves what we should implement or not in Scrabble3D: letter set, dictionary, standard rules. We have only the Finnish version of the board game to compare Scrabble3D with, but since Scrabble3D is an electronic game, we have to decide things that don't need to be decided for the physical board game played at home by private players.
first, I find it difficult to spread the ideas in two threads, letters and dictionary, because they are so much interrelated.
I think thinking outside of the box could be useful here. "We" don't need to apply the same rules that were made for the very different English language 50 years ago (sorry about slightly exaggerating). There is no Scrabble federation in Finland, and probably very very small number of players in Finland even want to play Scrabble using official competition rules. The program should be flexible in that sense, allowing the "ordinary" way of play for humans (not necessarily for the computer opponent!). Scrabble3D loses lots of Finnish users if you only can play "official" Scrabble with it.
Some posts say "we must delete these words from the list" etc. This is untrue. It's not logical to delete words because of the original restrictions of the English language, even if you have been doing it up till now. There are probably many, possible even easy ways, to do otherwise.
The relatively few words that have characters not legal according to "official" rules, could be marked in different categories in the dictionary. For example, words with hyphens, even ones that are parts of words, could be in the category "non-orthodox characters inclusive", which you could tick or untick in the dictionary tab in the options. Words with hacek could be in the category "words with hacek" etc. Spaces could be allowed in play because there are phrases in the dictionary. Just check the box "entries with spaces", and that category is included in the game, and the joker could be the space. Deleting entries in the dictionary seems to be the easy way, but in the long run it might cause more work. You never know, someone might in the future found a Scrabble federation in Finland and decide to use all the words from the kotus list as allowable.
My main point is that "official" rules of the imaginary Finnish federation can be applied, maybe copy the Swedish rules, but don't do unnecessary restrictions for someone who wants to use "all" of the Finnish language.
Could there be several lettersets for Finnish in addition to the "official" one, from which the program would automatically select or propose one according to the selected word categories (=letters used)? The dictionary would be the same.
Zitat Since the words with accents are so few in suomi.dic, in my opinion it is not a good idea to implement those letters as regular letters in the Finnish standard letter set. I think in this case it is better to apply the Swedish rule (see above) for Finnish games.
I agree, I didn't mean that they should be. I just showed they are in the dictionary as parts of "Finnish" words.
Zitat But remember: The letters Q W X Z Å and Š, represented by jokers, will make it difficult to continue playing, because the words containing those letters are so few in the dic. The use of the letters Q W X Z Å and Š will in some measure "block" the game.
(sorry I don't know to cite nicely) That's true, but blocking (opponents' plays) was also described somewhere as a useful scrabble tactic.
Zitat That's why we have implemented Q 0 0, W 0 0, Ü 0 0 and Æ 0 0 in the Swedish letter set, which means that these letters are not a part of the regular Swedish letter set, but they appear in the letter choice when you want to place a blank tile, which gives zero points (Q 0 0 means: letter Q, quantity zero, zero points - in the letter set).
Why not use this idea for Finnish (as on option)?
Zitat Since Š with hacek appears in 64 words, the frequency of which can be compared to that of the letters Q W X Z in suomi.dic, we could discuss if it would be a good idea to add Š 0 0. Then the letter Š would not appear on the rack, but it would be possible to use a blank tile for words with Š. But I would do this only if Q W X Z would be added with number zero and value zero as well. In my opinion, the case of the "Finnish" letter Å for the one and only word ÅNGSTRÖM can be compared to the Swedish case of Ü in MÜSLI. This means that we could add Å 0 0 to the Finnish letter set as well, so that players can use their jokers for Å.
Agreed. If there should be "official" ruleset for Finnish, it would of course have to include the official letters of the alphabet, only after that possibly the recommended letters like Š. Ž should be treated the same way, because it has the same official recommendation. 64 words or 9 words out of about 94000 means "very rare", so they should be on the same level.
Zitat von xyz im Beitrag #24The program should be flexible in that sense, allowing the "ordinary" way of play for humans (not necessarily for the computer opponent!). Scrabble3D loses lots of Finnish users if you only can play "official" Scrabble with it.
The program was written for a maximum of flexibility. You can do what you want right now and out-of-the-box. You suggestions about categories are a debatable alternative. If all letters are included in Finnish set you can switch categories on/off as you want. The point is that uncommon letters (hyphen, spaces etc.) and rare (hacek, apostrophe) need to get added. At least it looks a little bit strange in the joker selection dialogue.
Zitat von xyzCould there be several lettersets for Finnish in addition to the "official" one...?
No. Every language have one set, even Superscrabble needs manual configuration.
@xyz: When you are in edit mode, because you are writing your post, look at the top of the editor on the right side - there you have the iconbar with smileys and formatting buttons. If you want to quote, you must click on the button that looks like a speech bubble --> [quote]test text[/quote]. Try it out! We have also another quotation function. On the top of every post, on the right hand, you see these links: save quote  reply. If you want to quote one or several posts, you only have to click on save quote, and when you are in edit mode, you can easily insert the saved quotations.
[EDIT] Adminchen: I have edited your post #24 and inserted the quotations correctly.
Zitat von xyz im Beitrag #24There is no Scrabble federation in Finland, and probably very very small number of players in Finland even want to play Scrabble using official competition rules. The program should be flexible in that sense, allowing the "ordinary" way of play for humans (not necessarily for the computer opponent!). Scrabble3D loses lots of Finnish users if you only can play "official" Scrabble with it.
I don't agree with you. I think standard rules should be standard rules. IMHO Scrabble3D must be recognizable as Scrabble, even by Finnish people. Finnish people may have played the board game before and would not recognize strange rules. AFAIK there is no language with alphabet writing system that uses hyphens or other signs like points, apostrophes and so on in Scrabble, nor does the physical board game, because these signs are not letters of the alphabet. Spaces are definitively not allowed in Scrabble, every word has to be connected with another word, which is already placed on the board. Excuse me, but if you use spaces between words as if spaces were letters, this will not be Scrabble any more, even if you are using a joker for the "space". I think such "xyz home made rules" would be silly to have as standard rules for Finnish language... Sorry. I don't like that idea. Even if there is no Finnish Scrabble Federation, you should keep in mind the other official international rules all over the world, which even Finnish Scrabble players may have seen before.
But as Scotty said before, it is possible to configure the settings in Scrabble3D in a very very individual manner. It is possible to configure your own letter set, and you can use any signs you want: @<$%"#¤§|-,;>*/}?1234567890 and so on. Then you can save these special settings as presets. People can even adapt the dic for their own purposes as well. But this would not be standard any more...