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 Fehlermeldungen & Wünsche
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Bussinchen Offline




Posts: 11

Mon Aug 29, 2011 10:40 pm
#16 RE: Das Problem der Digraphen in der Wortsuche Quote · reply

Zitat von Scotty
That has to be filed as bug report. Easy to fix... I hope


That's not to be considered a bug, Scotty, because you never have programmed it.

A feature that has not been programmed yet, isn't a bug.


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See also

El problema de los dígrafos en el futuro diccionario espanol.dic [en alemán y español] (2)

El problema de los dígrafos en el futuro diccionario espanol.dic [en alemán y español] (2)


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jmontane Offline




Posts: 63

Wed Aug 31, 2011 11:18 am
#17 RE: Das Problem der Digraphen in der Wortsuche Quote · reply

Zitat
Aren't there really no examples that contrast Spanish?


Sorry, I don't understand your question.
Do you want other languages where digraphs must be played only as a single tile, as Spanish? or do you want languages where digraphs can be played using simple 2 or more tiles or as a single tile?

According to English wikipedia [1], there are 5 languages using digraphs (Catalan, Croatian, Hungarian, Spanish and Welsh). You can add the languages without official Scrabble distribution founded at Scrabble3D. In Catalan and Spanish digraphs must be played using a single tile.


[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scrabble_letter_distributions


Scotty Offline

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Posts: 3.607

Wed Aug 31, 2011 1:03 pm
#18 RE: Das Problem der Digraphen in der Wortsuche Quote · reply

The question is how to input a digraph. Currently, one has to write 1 for LL (or the like) at the word search dialogue. Spanish people can type LL which could be parsed internally to 1 because they have no ABCL-LXYZ word. All LL-combinations are digraphs. I'm looking for examples where sometimes LL is a digraph and sometimes not to make sure that no unknown exclusion would interfere with the procedure.


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jmontane Offline




Posts: 63

Wed Aug 31, 2011 1:22 pm
#19 RE: Das Problem der Digraphen in der Wortsuche Quote · reply

Zitat
The question is how to input a digraph.



IMHO, when using Spanish dictionary, made input like "CHACHA" availabe, and internally parse it to 1A1A. You can keep 1A1A input as a "backsafe input system" to "exotical" chars used by digraphs, like Catalan "L·L". So, if the user have easy access to · char, he/she can type "GORIL·LA", but if his/her keyboard doesn't have · char, then he/she can type "GORI2A"


akerbeltzalba Offline




Posts: 142

Wed Aug 31, 2011 2:02 pm
#20 RE: Das Problem der Digraphen in der Wortsuche Quote · reply

That raises the question if there are any lettersets which could cause this issue. I'm a tad shaky on Spanish/Catalan but in Gaelic at least there are only true digraphs i.e. [sh][e][a][ll] can only be composed of those four units, because by virtue of the digraphs, free h does not exist in the .dic.

The other digraphs [ll] [nn] and [rr] are only true digraphs either. Even if you fused two words, for example ban + nàbaidh, that would become banabaidh, never *bannabaidh because the moment you write them together, they suggest a totally different phonetic value.

Or let me ask the question the other round. If a Scrabble set uses digraphs, will there ever be cases where a word contains a letter sequence which is not seen as a digraph? There's the German example [H][ä][u][s][ch][e][n] (not [H][ä][u][sch][e][n]) but then the German set has neither di- nor trigraphs.

In Catalan or Spanish, is it possible to get l+l which is not [ʎ] but [l.l]? I think Catalan would use the l·l digraph anyway to distinguish those. Which leaves Spanish (what other sets do we have with digraphs?) - I think Spanish deletes the second l to avoid overlap anyway, doesn't it? Thinking of words like collaboration > colaboración.


jmontane Offline




Posts: 63

Wed Aug 31, 2011 2:31 pm
#21 RE: Das Problem der Digraphen in der Wortsuche Quote · reply

Zitat
If a Scrabble set uses digraphs, will there ever be cases where a word contains a letter sequence which is not seen as a digraph?


Catalan and Spanish dictionaries are safe. In Spanish, all words with LL must be played as digraph. In Catalan, all words with L·L must be played as digraph.


Bussinchen Offline




Posts: 11

Wed Aug 31, 2011 5:42 pm
#22 RE: Das Problem der Digraphen in der Wortsuche Quote · reply

Yes, I confirm: In Spanish, there are no words where CH, LL and RR are not digraphs.
I had checked it already on 21.05.2010 01:14, see
El problema de los dígrafos en el futuro diccionario espanol.dic [en alemán y español]

In Spanish, there are no double consonants other than LL and RR which are real digraphs.

If you are interested in reading what we had discussed more than one year ago, you can read this Thread:
El problema de los dígrafos en el futuro diccionario espanol.dic [en alemán y español] (discussion in German).

Hungarian is another digraph language.
I should ask baba or debrecen, if all Hungarian digraphs really are real digraphs, without exception.


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Bussinchen Offline




Posts: 11

Sun Sep 04, 2011 2:19 am
#23 RE: Das Problem der Digraphen in der Wortsuche Quote · reply

Zitat von akerbeltzalba
If a Scrabble set uses digraphs, will there ever be cases where a word contains a letter sequence which is not seen as a digraph?



In Hungarian, we have already found words, where a letter sequence that seems to be a digraph in reality is not a digraph:
NYLON and CITY.

cf. Das ungarische Wörterbuch: magyar.dic (2) and the following postings.


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akerbeltzalba Offline




Posts: 142

Sun Sep 04, 2011 3:20 am
#24 RE: Das Problem der Digraphen in der Wortsuche Quote · reply

Hm reading through the Wikipedia article on the Hungarian set (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scrabble_le...tions#Hungarian) it looks though like single Y is not included in the set. That means that on the board version, CITY and NYLON either use the digraphs anyway or that loanwords are not allowed in games. So either way, Hungarian shouldn't pose a problem to 3D as it doesn't seem to worry about words like that in the board game.

Reading on a bit, Welsh (which uses the digraphs DD FF TH CH LL NG RH) doesn't seem to be too worried either about the issue of loanwords, having included J which occurs just in loanwords.

To me it would seem like Scrabble tends to go with the most common version of a combination i.e. if CH is more common as a digraph, you get a CH tile and if CH as a digraph is rare, you don't and those cases which fall into the middle you just accept. That's what it looks like to me anyway. Is there a specific Hungarian ruleset which addresses TY and NY?


Bussinchen Offline




Posts: 11

Sun Sep 04, 2011 4:10 am
#25 Digraphen in der Wortsuche - Ungarische Digraphen vs. Non-Digraphen Quote · reply

Zitat von akerbeltzalba
Hm reading through the Wikipedia article on the Hungarian set (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scrabble_le...tions#Hungarian) it looks though like single Y is not included in the set. That means that on the board version, CITY and NYLON either use the digraphs anyway or that loanwords are not allowed in games. So either way, Hungarian shouldn't pose a problem to 3D as it doesn't seem to worry about words like that in the board game.


No, my dear akerbeltzalba, it is not that easy as you believe! The problem is that you may use the joker for words with Y. You may not use any digraphs instead of N + Y or T + Y.

Look here please:

Magyar - Ungarisch (2) and the following postings,
but especially
Magyar - Ungarisch (2)
Magyar - Ungarisch
Magyar - Ungarisch

debrecen is a forum member who speaks Hungarian and who is in the possession of the Hungarian Scrabble board game. Of course he has read the booklet with the game rules that is included in that box.


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akerbeltzalba Offline




Posts: 142

Sun Sep 04, 2011 4:38 am
#26 RE: Digraphen in der Wortsuche - Ungarische Digraphen vs. Non-Digraphen Quote · reply

Ok, read through those but I still don't think it's actually a problem. Take a native Hungarian word with a digraph like ''nyak''; in the dic this becomes 2AK.

If I play [NY][A][K] on the board now, the game checks to see if [NY][A][K] aka [2][A][K] is in the dictionary. If yes, it awards points, if now, it doesn't.

If I tried to play the same word (using letters or jokers, I don't think that makes a difference) with the tiles [N][Y][A][K], the computer looks for [N][Y][A][K], not [NY][A][K] aka [2][A][K]. As it will not find that in the dictionary, I don't get points.

So the question of the false digraphs in NYLON (i.e. [N][Y][L][O][N]) and the other one in my mind would be easy to solve by not putting them in the dictionary.

According to the Wikipedia article on Hungarian, Y by itself does not count as a proper letter in Hungarian anyway it would seem, as the article says "occurs in loanwords and in very old surnames". And sure enough, the Hungarian set does not have single Y.

Perhaps I'm not getting something but by just leaving out single Y like the boardgame does, we solve all these issues.


akerbeltzalba Offline




Posts: 142

Sun Sep 04, 2011 4:40 am
#27 RE: Digraphen in der Wortsuche - Ungarische Digraphen vs. Non-Digraphen Quote · reply

Ah I've just reread again. So the problem is that in the Hungarian set, jokers can be used for letters NOT on any letter tile like Q W Y?

Duh, LOL, that's a bit of a bugger ;)

Zitat
Zum Thema "erlaubte Wörter" steht abschließend die Empfehlung, dass man sich vor Spielbeginn auf ein Wörterbuch einigen solle.



Naja das ist auch eine Lösungsmöglichkeit. Wir könnten doch einfach sagen daß das 3D Wörterbuch einfach keine derartigen Wörter mit Y Q etc enthalten. Das wäre dann das Wörterbuch, auf das man sich einigt ;)


Bussinchen Offline




Posts: 11

Sun Sep 04, 2011 5:40 am
#28 RE: Digraphen in der Wortsuche - Ungarische Digraphen vs. Non-Digraphen Quote · reply

Zitat von akerbeltzalba
Ah I've just reread again. So the problem is that in the Hungarian set, jokers can be used for letters NOT on any letter tile like Q W Y?


Genau! So ist es. So wird es z.B. auch im Schwedischen und im Italienischen gehandhabt.

Zitat von akerbeltzalba

Zitat
Zum Thema "erlaubte Wörter" steht abschließend die Empfehlung, dass man sich vor Spielbeginn auf ein Wörterbuch einigen solle.


Naja das ist auch eine Lösungsmöglichkeit. Wir könnten doch einfach sagen daß das 3D Wörterbuch einfach keine derartigen Wörter mit Y Q etc enthalten. Das wäre dann das Wörterbuch, auf das man sich einigt ;)



Irgendwo steht zwar diese alberne Regel, aber das ist höchstens für den Hausgebrauch, wenn man am Küchentisch sitzt und spielt. Offizielles Referenzwerk ist das Magyar Értelmező Kéziszótár. Wir hatten schon die CD-ROM bestellt, und unsere gebürtige Ungarin baba wollte sie bei sich auf dem Computer installieren, aber da gab es Probleme mit dem Registriercode. Das Ende vom Lied ist, dass das Geld weg ist, dass der Code verwirkt ist, und dass das Wörterbuch nicht korrekt installiert und somit unbrauchbar ist. Baba hat leider niemanden, der ihr helfen kann und ich kann ihr sehr zu meinem Verdruss auch nicht weiterhelfen mit dieser CD.
Nun war debrecen in den Sommerferien wieder in Ungarn und er wollte eine neue Magyar Értelmező Kéziszótár-CD mitbringen. Er hat sich aber leider noch nicht wieder bei mir gemeldet. Ich werde ihn wohl anschreiben müssen, damit er sich rührt.

Unser Ziel ist es jedenfalls, möglichst ein magyar.dic auf der Basis des Magyar Értelmező Kéziszótár zu erstellen (wobei der agglutinierende Sprachbau die Sache erheblich erschwert). Und wenn im Magyar Értelmező Kéziszótár Wörter wie NYLON und CITY drinstehen, dann haben diese Wörter meines Erachtens zulässig zu sein. Diese einfach kurzerhand aus unserem magyar.dic zu eliminieren, wäre zwar die einfachste, aber wirklich keine wünschenswerte, sondern - mit Verlaub gesagt - eine eher hausbackene Lösung. Leider sind wir noch nicht so weit, dass wir genauere Aussagen zum Wortschatz des Magyar Értelmező Kéziszótár machen können. Notgedrungen stagniert die Arbeit am ungarischen Sprachpaket derzeit, weshalb sich Linhart inzwischen verstärkt dem latin.dic zugewandt hat.

Was die Digraphen betrifft, kommt es natürlich auch darauf an, was Scotty für die Wortsuche zu programmieren imstande ist. Unser Zauberer Scotty hat aber schon x-mal bewiesen, dass er Außergewöhnliches zu leisten vermag. Ich sehe es doch mit eigenen Augen: Scottys Programmierkünste steigern sich von Patch zu Patch, und es gibt meines Erachtens nichts, was er uns nicht programmieren könnte, auch wenn er zunächst Vorbehalte anmeldet. Aber früher oder später kriegt er alle Features genau so hin, wie wir es möchten. Das jüngste Beispiel ist der Challenge-Modus der kommenden Patch 24 mit Anfechtmöglichkeit in Vollendung bis zum letzten Spielzug. Halbseidene Kompromisse werden daher nicht mehr akzeptiert, weil wir wissen, dass Scotty es besser kann. Für halbseidene Kompromisse ist die Scrabble3D.Echse außerdem schon viel zu gut, viel zu perfekt. Scotty ist so tüchtig; er wird auch eine Lösung für die Handhabung der Digraphen und der entsprechenden Non-Digraphen in der Wortsuche finden. Das weiß ich. Es ist noch nie vorgekommen, dass Scotty irgendetwas nicht hingekriegt hätte. Er ist ein Meister seines Metiers, eine Koryphäe. Wir müssen ihm nur Zeit lassen. Und das tun wir doch gern. (Bitte Scotty, sieh dies hier nicht als Druckausübung, sondern als Lobeshymne auf deine eminenten Programmierkünste!)


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Scotty Offline

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Posts: 3.607

Sun Sep 04, 2011 9:50 am
#29 RE: Digraphen in der Wortsuche - Ungarische Digraphen vs. Non-Digraphen Quote · reply

If all combinations are replaced one could handle the whole stuff more comfortable. The letterset has to be specified in the header and reading the dictionary strips all polygraphs from the words. Doing so a "Replacement" section is dispensable but could be used for rare specials like 2=Y. It would look like:

[General]
[Letters]
A,B,CH,NY,2
[Replace]
2=Y (1 looks like small L)
[Words]
ABRACADABRA
CHACHACHA
CIT2
N2LON
NYMPHE

resulting in external/internal words
...CHACHACHA/1A1A1A, CITY/CIT2, NYLON/N2LON, NYMPHE/3MPHE. A further benefit is that letterset and dictionary are well aligned and playing a Scottish Gaelic game with correct dictionary but wrong English letterset wouldn't be possible anymore. On the other hand it will take more time to read the dictionary.


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Bussinchen Offline




Posts: 11

Sun Sep 04, 2011 11:50 am
#30 RE: Digraphen in der Wortsuche - Ungarische Digraphen vs. Non-Digraphen Quote · reply

This solution seems to be phantastic!

As I said before: Our beloved wizard Scotty is simply wonderful! His ideas are great!

How exciting it is to follow the evolution of our Scrabble3D.exe!!!




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But what would happen, if somebody wants to play in an "exotic" language with a personalized letterset that he had combined himself, and with his own word list or even without any word list? Let's say somebody wants to play in Bulgarian language using e.g. the Russian letter set or his own personalized letter set, without loading any dic?


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